13 replies to this topic

[Brick]

I was browsing through the home office web site the other day when I came across this article
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/docs3/controls_on_firearms.pdf

I quote
"Air guns discharging pellets with a muzzle energy of 1 joule or less, which covers many "airsofts" (and most BB guns), are not "firearms" because they are not regarded as "lethal" barrelled weapons. "Lethality" is not defined in law and we invite views on whether, and how, this might be done. Views are also invited on whether the statutory definition of "firearm" should be amended."
"Offences. Trespassing with an airgun and firing one within 50 feet of a public road are both offences"

It would seem that the Home Office have taken advice from the Firearms consultation comitee that 1 joule be recommended as maximum for airsoft. Does anyone know who is on said commitee?

[Arnie]

I believe that the FCC records are publically accessible, however I'm not aware where they are listed. I have a very good idea of everyone on it (pro/anti/neutral).. however I'm not sure if such memberships are meant to be public knowledge, nor want to offer up names as virtual-scapegoats.

Further reference on the subject:

http://www.mail-archive.com/cybershooters@...m/msg02607.html

It has come to our attention that Sussex Police submitted some Airsoft sub machine gun toy replicas to a Forensic Scientist for testing. The resulting forensic report caused a solicitor from the Crown Prosecution Service to advise that he believed the Airsoft guns satisfied the definition of firearms under Section 57(1) of the Firearms Act 1968 and would also qualify as PROHIBITED WEAPONS under Section 5 of the Act (Eds Note: In other words, he regards Airsoft guns to be the equivalent in law to REAL sub machine guns and other banned firearms).

Sussex Police are now advising the Home Office of this forensic examination, in order that they can decide what action, if any, to take.

That's a reproduction of an article in GunMart Dec '00. The HomeOffice always have and still do consider Airsoft to have energies typically from 0.2-0.8J. They have always been advised that beyond 1.35J FSS consider low-powered airweapons to be lethal. FSS advise CPS on any cases they seek to action.

The only difference is that now instead of the HO saying it's 1.35J... they have taken advice from someone of late that 1J should be the legal limit.

Personally I think that's ill-advised, as having a legal limit set so close to the commonly used limits is open to huge problems, and zero margin for error.

1.35J legal, and 1J recommended was a much better way to go about in my own opinion.

[Brick]

I believe that the FCC records are publically accessible, however I'm not aware where they are listed. I have a very good idea of everyone on it (pro/anti/neutral).. however I'm not sure if such memberships are meant to be public knowledge, nor want to offer up names as virtual-scapegoats.

hmm should have thought of that myself

Further reference on the subject:

http://www.mail-archive.com/cybershooters@...m/msg02607.html
That's a reproduction of an article in GunMart Dec '00. The HomeOffice always have and still do consider Airsoft to have energies typically from 0.2-0.8J. They have always been advised that beyond 1.35J FSS consider low-powered airweapons to be lethal. FSS advise CPS on any cases they seek to action.

Ok what this means is if the HO and police want they can prove that all airsoft guns are prohibited weapons.

The only difference is that now instead of the HO saying it's 1.35J... they have taken advice from someone of late that 1J should be the legal limit.

This tightening up was exactly what we were trying to avoid

Personally I think that's ill-advised, as having a legal limit set so close to the commonly used limits is open to huge problems, and zero margin for error.

1.35J legal, and 1J recommended was a much better way to go about in my own opinion.

[post="13965"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

And that was what certain parties were working towards if my memory serves, Dee Dee and a few others were working with the UKASGB to get Airsoft accepted and legal limits much higher than that allowed. Seems all the good work has gone to waste.

[Arnie]

I believe that you'll find that a lot of those who were interested in helping left the scene ages ago. I have no idea where the ASGB have been placing their efforts on the matter. I'd recommend asking them yourself.

The changes on the way have been in the making for some time. And yes.. the bit about prohibited weapons is true too.

By the time the online community has finished arguing about the train that left the station well over a year ago the law will be changed before anyone organises themselves to get their point of view heard by anyone that matters.

[Brick]

It's all a bit of a b**** up isn't it.........
And those who were interested in helping didn't just leave their was a certain amount of pushing involved. makes you think what is their about the airsoft community that deserves saving when it bites the hand that helps it.....

[HaVoC]

*sigh* Sorry if this is a really stupid thing to say/ask, but I'm still confused as to what the laws actually are.

Basically, instead of all this government jibber-jabber and them phrasing things in 20 sentences so that no-one can understand them, could you please put in simple sentences...

What the maximum FPS level for an airsoft gun USED TO BE
What the maximum FPS level for an airsoft gun IS NOW
What is being done about it by the airsoft community (UKASGB, UKASF etc)
What this means for the airsoft community

Sorry if this makes me seem like a simpleton but I'm sure I'm not the only one who's utterly confused as to what's actually going on...

Cheers,
HaVoC

[rhino]

Actually Havoc, i think it's good that someone shows consideration for airsoft law. I'm not truly 100% sure of the laws apart from the meagre basics myself and would appreciate any "Laymans Terms" replies.

[R22Master]

Unfortunately, it's not as simple as that. I wish it were. You have 1 legal maximum that you must not go over for target shooting AEGs. Another legal maximum you must not go over for target shooting sniper rifles. Another legal maximum for skirmishing with either AEG or Sniper Rifle. A recommended maximum that you should not go over for skirmishing unless you want to run the risk of being prosecuted (although this level is not strictly outside the law). There are full-auto and semi-auto considerations. There are legal differences between pistols and rifles.....

.....the list goes on.

To keep things simple, stay below 1 Joule of muzzle energy for all, and you are safe within the current framework. Simple eh?

[HaVoC]

Still too complex, but it was an admirable attempt...

If you have enough time (ie - you're not planning to go to bed tonight) then would you mind posting up the differences between pistols and AEGs etc in the eyes of the law?

*hands R22 a frosty Coke*

[rhino]

Id hand him some Pro-plus or other caffeine additive then.

Yikes! 1000 posts!!! MEH!!

[R22Master]

Depends on the action of the pistol and other attributes of both the pistols and the AEGs. Plus, I have a good handle on what is legal and what is not, but I have neither the time nor the confidence to write a guide that I could display to others as 100% correct. There are so many loopholes, qualifications and sub-regulations in the law, any sweeping statements are almost impossible to apply universally.

It is far better and far easier to just say...

1 Joule and below is safe.
Over 1 Joule is not.

That way, we all know where we stand. Assuming you want to keep within the law, pushing the upper limits of legal restrictions doesn't get you much in the way of a performance advantage anyway.

[HaVoC]

Yep, agreed

[Brick]

Things are complicated because of the readily convertible law as well, AEG's are readily convertible to over 1 or 2 joule's with house hold tools (if you have the right spring available). The Ho seem to be indicating that 1J is the limit for airsoft, above that it is no longer airsoft.
As I understand it you could get away with 1.35j not long ago now we have a limit of 1 J. As for who is supposed to be fighting our corner we have the BASC and the UKASGB as UKAPA does not seem to be up again yet . BASC put on their web site that 1 J should be the legal limit so they do not seem to have our best interests at heart, Ken Elston and the UKASGB seem to be our only hope and I believe that they have only been able to get insurance on a basis of a 1 J maximum. Has anyone heard if UKAPA are back in the land of the living yet?

[Zen]

Has anyone heard if UKAPA are back in the land of the living yet?

[post="15253"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

There is an atempt going to resurect it on UKAN at the moment

http://forums.ukairsoft.net/showthread.php...15&pagenumber=1

Zen