431 replies to this topic

[CKinnerley]

ARs with 'fancy' rail systems don't look generic if you know enough about the nuances of the ways people set them up and the slight differences that various parts and accessories make to the weapon. If none of that stuff actually changed the way the weapon handled, there wouldn't be such a massive industry in making it all.

[uscmCorps]

It's still going through the final round of tweaks. They wanted to be 100% happy with it before taking it to market. It's very close actually. I tested extensively the prototype from two iterations ago, which was already further along than the one showcased at Shot Show this year. I was very pleased with it.

[Dreamer777]

It's still going through the final round of tweaks. They wanted to be 100% happy with it before taking it to market. It's very close actually. I tested extensively the prototype from two iterations ago, which was already further along than the one showcased at Shot Show this year. I was very pleased with it.

Any chance you can give us the 411 on the internals? if its an ARES gearbox? Accuracy?

[talon_0315]

It's still going through the final round of tweaks. They wanted to be 100% happy with it before taking it to market. It's very close actually. I tested extensively the prototype from two iterations ago, which was already further along than the one showcased at Shot Show this year. I was very pleased with it.

Thanks for the info, uscm. Color all of us jelly.

[swatti]

YARR! Been a while now and nothing new seems to have hit the net about this... Still no confirmed release-date?

[aznriptide859]

It's still going through the final round of tweaks. They wanted to be 100% happy with it before taking it to market. It's very close actually. I tested extensively the prototype from two iterations ago, which was already further along than the one showcased at Shot Show this year. I was very pleased with it.

Better not pull some ###### and make ARES OEM again...

[swatti]

I may be biased as i only own a ARES TAR21 but i cant find very many flaws in it, its nearly perfect in all aspects. Because of all the ARES-hate i opened her up to see whats causing all of it and honestly, i cant ficure it out...
There was VERY little i'd do different on that gun as far as parts go and seemingly all parts were compatible with other brands if not out of the box, with minor modding atleast.

I somewhat understand the micro-switch hate in ASM-forums but even that goes a bit too far in some posts and there is a 5 dollar fix for the problem out there.

So, seriously, why the ARES-hate?

[aznriptide859]

In general their parts quality is very sub-par, and the microswitch problem as you listed bothers a lot of us modders/EE nerds. Keep in mind ASM's main userbase is those who DON'T like keeping their guns stock, and love testing their guns to the extremes/above average of the FPS/ROF range. Compared to other manufacturers, ARES just doesn't provide a very good base gun to modify and upgrade with.. ARES's poor design decisions in the past and present has alienated them from a lot of long time/tech-oriented players.

Of course I am a certain amount of a hypocrite, since I do own an S&T TAR21; however I'm reluctant to open it and upgrade it in fear I will have to dump a ton of money into it just to keep it working reliably.

[swatti]

Correct me if im wrong but S&T TAR21 is PLASTIC-gearboxed cheapo/cqb-tool, not even meant as full AEG unlike its ARES made "bigger brother" and are the two even same company or direct clones? i was under the impression they are very different "under the hood"

I do understand ASMs members like to take their guns to the limit and thus un-ordenery design may cause issues. I would personaly limit "extreme" FPS/ROF setups for simple guns. Rough comparison but its like putting a Twinturbo-setup into a new Ferrari and then whining: "it broke"
I cant say how much the ARES TAR can take fps-wise but i can safely say it can take what the seeminly most popular limit is, as in M120 / 1.6J / 120ish ms. I have yet to see a ROF limit and we do not have such, but if someone came to me saying they want more FPS and huge ROF, i'd say "learn to play"
I had a 122m/s PDW pumping out hilarius ROF, it was a mere test and as 95% of players will be happy with just reduced semi-lag, i also downgraded my the PDWs ROF to more sane level, i dont want to hurt anyone.

From a quick comparison of ARES parts found in the TAR21 and some G&P, Systema, etc that were around at the time i saw none of the ARES parts inferior to any of the others. Poor upgrade-base? Seriously, how many guns have a quick-change system to get the spring out? I'd say that alone makes for one VERY good upgrade-base unless you have some strange urge to stuff in a M170 Spring and 10cell Lipo... "Oh look, it broke, must be bad design and poor upgrade-base"

Both guns and cars have their "intended use" and going past it and then whining its not working right and blaming the maker is just stupid.

[aznriptide859]

From what I understand, S&T "claim" they are ARES's OEM, and then started releasing their own, cheaper products (ironically, same as when ARES claimed they were STAR's OEM, then started releasing their own stuff). Based on reviews and breakdowns their designs are almost the same, albeit S&T using a little cheaper parts (i.e. the plastic-gearboxed TAR21).

I can see your viewpoint on the upgrade "potential", however most players who do want to upgrade in the future expect some sort of reliability once new upgrade parts are put in. As for me, if I want to upgrade the FPS, I want to be able to put in a spring and not have the rest of the parts fail; I've had a large number of guns fail after a simple upgrade, which resulted in me replacing 70-80% of the rest of the parts. ARES's "potential" doesn't stand up to others such as JG, DBoys, TM, VFC...the list goes on. However, if you want to just keep the gun stock (as I probably will on my TAR21), then ARES is possibly viable as a "decent" gun.

I won't go into the quick spring change function much - some people few that as a convenience (easier to change FPS ratings), while some people few that as a flaw (weaker gearbox reinforcement near the spring guide area).

My other gripe with ARES is their poor design/technical choices. I do not know all of them, but I have heard complaints regarding their hopup "integrated nub" system, their L96 gas bolt/magazine quality, their retarded battery-in-mag design for the M3 Greasegun....and the list goes on. Personally, I trust ARES much less than I trust other manufacturers, so I am extremely reluctant to buy something that they make (the TAR21 being an exception since I got it for ridiculously cheap).

All in all, everyone is entitled to their own opinions - if you like ARES, then that's OK too. But considering the huge number of complaints with the PTS ACR and them using ARES as the OEM, I hope PTS have "listened" and will be using some other manufacturer for their PDR.

[NeoVeNoM]

Well, I have tested an S&T G36c of a client. and the finish is well below quality compared to my Ares G36c.
Body parts don't fit smoothly, hanging loose actually gearbox is basically Chinese. and the black paint on it chips off like crazy.
It might have been 50€ cheaper, but mine is already more than 1 year old and never broken down and 350fps OTB.
the S&T had to be completely dismantled modified and put together again. So much for 50€ cheaper. Guess it's a hit or miss.
I never had real issues with Ares in general (STAR on the other hand...) and I am a long term/tech crazy airsoft player.
What I do noticed over the years, is that many have the fundamentals wrong on a gearbox even when it comes to simple maintenance.
It's in the details, But in the end everyone has to do what he/she likes best.
just my 2 cents.

Now lets hope this PDR hits the shelves next month!

[swatti]

Interesting. I have a S&T SVD... Kinda makes me wanna find that TAR21 now to do some comparisons.

The previous owner of my TAR21 put it thru hell as usage goes and i've been far from gentle. Ive kept it stock as it pumps out FPS nearing our limit with VERY good overall performance in every aspect as well. Do ppl honestly even need more then 120m/s or so?
TM "reliability" is due to a weak spring. Their parts are VERY consistant and have very good quality control but swap in a M120-spring and do talk to me about "reliability"
Most ACM-brands have VERY poor quality control and thus the guns fail often, give em a proper checkup and fix the faults before you fire a shot and yours is gonna last longer then most guns in the field.

ARES guns are rare here due to the price, ACMs have taken over here bigtime. Hopup "integrated nub" doesnt seem very hard to fix if needed... Does sound odd tho. If i wanted a Greasegun, i'd go for ARES because of the battery-in-mag-thingy. I think i might have some 11.1v lipos that would fit. While others may think its stupid, for me it would be brilliant while somewhat increase the mag-prices.

While i cant say that im a particular ARES-fanboy, i do say they are just as good as any other or even better then most brands. I personaly put them way above most ACM-brands. They have few "different" designs and so do many others. Seems to me that some ppl have taken ARES as their target and blaming them for just about anything. Personaly i'd rather have the ARES-made ACR then the horrid junk that A&K spewed out and i sadly bought. Why? Because all ARES guns, be it TAR21 or ACR seem to run smooth while A&K ACRs have a bad reputation here for being rubbish.

Well, enough of this now. So far we cant prove anything to be honest. I have my experience, you have your by the looks of it. I think its safe to say there could be many worse options then ARES as far as parts go and well, if you dont like em, swap em, i wont.

[aznriptide859]

Haha no problem, everyone's entitled to their own opinions. And yes, there are many, MANY worse options out there .

[intinerious]

swatti, I think the main thing to people is cost v performance. Those that do complain about ARES are looking at the internals being somewhat proprietary, the OEM parts being hard to get I believe, and for the price you pay (I understand the externals are EXCELLENT) it just doesn't have the same 'flexibility' as TM specced guns.

I like to point out that just because it's got a quick spring change feature doesn't mean it's a very GOOD upgrade base. That'll be kinda like saying that V2s are better than V3 gearboxes because there's no motor cage attached to the gearbox, so changing out the motor is easy

Most players, after getting their AEGs would like to either change the FPS, ROF or both. With ARES and it's proprietary parts you can see how that's a problem. Plus, being able to easily (as in without the need to do irreversible mods to the internals) do crazy stuff to the gun, like upping ROF to 70 rps or get up to 3J, is a sign that the OEM materials are strong enough to withstand something that crazy (therefore, if you managed to break parts in a less strenuous setup it's likely the tech's fault, not solely the materials) or there are aftermarket options available out there that will allow you to get up to that level of craziness.

And you're right about people shoving crazy stuff into the gun and making the OEM parts break...but the main issue here is for the price ARES's other competitors CAN get up to that level of power, or has the capabilities to due to aftermarket options, whereas ARES is lacking in that department. In this case you cannot use TM as a comparable given that everything TM design is solely based on their home market with their low fps ceiling, and even if you work around that by saying the stock parts don't hold up to 1J @ 60rps TM still have aftermarket support which CAN enable it to reach that level of rps with that energy level. ARES as far as I know don't have advertised or implied 'limits' to their products (and if they advertised anything that would be a marketing failure IMO) and therefore the general population of tech-inclined airsofters will hold it up to the standards that we compare other China/Taiwan based AEGs with, and those far exceed the cost v performance of ARES.

As for the ACR, I'll only agree with you (being angry) if they used A&K stuff if the price remained the same as their current ARES based ACR If the ACR was A&K based, was reasonably priced and had a plethora of aftermarket support available to it, I'm sure you'll see a lot more love for the ACR from tech-inclined people than it's current situation. You shouldn't automatically assume people are hating on ARES because it's the cool thing to do in airsoft gossip nowadays and failing to address the overall inflexibility of the platform to the demands of most airsofters who are tech-inclined and if given the chance will rip any gearbox apart before putting it back together to see if it works

Edited by intinerious, 26 July 2012 - 06:49 PM.

[swatti]

GRR! Damn you all for making me look like a ARES marketing rep...

Well, i must admit in Cost vs Performance ARES might fail but considoring i can get PTW-grade performance out of a Cheapo ACM gun with few tweaks dont that mean everything above that said ACM-cheapo is not very cost-efficant?

Like i said i dont wanna sound like an ARES-fanboy but instead to prove its no worse then most brands out there. Hmm... That said, what would it need to be "equal" in your eyes? Pump out massive FPS? Huge ROF? Both? Its been quite some time since i took mine apart so i cant recall all details so clearly but trying to think back i see no problems fitting most parts to say, my AK74U or fitting the parts from the AK to the TAR21... Out of the two i'd say ARES takes a small lead over the Dboys AK. Dunno if i'd put my money on a fancy Systema Probox over ARES TAR21 gearbox(as in internals, not just shell), be it a brutal stress-test "till the end" or typical skirmishing.
If i recall, wasn it so that a regular piston needed modification to fit the TAR21? Cant remember that on mine. Ok. Lets say its so, or any part for that matter. They made a TAR21, freaking sweet! Even has nifty features like spring-release and quick-change, i'd forgive them a few "may need some modding" -bits for all they have done.

Heres a question. What does other guns have that the TAR21 cannot have due to its "special TAR21-only parts" ? Considoring it is an assault-rifle.
Jeah im sure someone is really sad somewhere cause his didnt work as a SAW and sniper at the same time and now hates ARES for it while sleeping next to his 249 with biiiig scope on it.

Reminds me of me and guy next door. I buy a new Mercedes-Benz with a big engine, he buys a Toyota that runs on batteries or so. Both cars get the job done, he for some reason just seems to hate anything with a Merc-star on it for some reason and spreads the hate all over... Does that make mine bad? Im also fairly sure Prius doesnt have a "sport" model regardless if the tags he has on his boot ^^

I believe both the guy next door and someone not using a TAR21 as an assault-rifle is an idiot.

[ODST_NE0]

From my personal experience with the ARES TAR21 and my personal ACRs, I don't feel the hate for the ARES internals, more as I am just wishing they would have done things differently. Much as the same feeling I have about that 5R55S transmission has to have its fluid filled from the bottom of the pan, instead of normal filling from the top. I like how ARES is willing to try things differently, but sometimes they get caught up in this new idea I don't always think things all the way.

While they may not be super/hyper performers, they do the job for the typical demands of airsoft (FPS 350-400 and 15-18RPS), not going to be doing super stuff, but they can do the job. I am actually quite impress with the TAR21 performance, especially its stock ROF. I usually don't hold a Stock AEGs hopup against it too much, as I usually replace it off the bat to begin with.

Now if the PDR comes out with a ARES gearbox, will I be disappointed...a bit, but not enough to not get one.

[Jibbity]

swatti, I think the main thing to people is cost v performance.

^ This exactly. I can buy a JG and all of the parts to make it whatever I want for $200.

[Danke]

On the topic of Ares I really like my SR-25. I got it because of the unique features like the integraged hopup, micro switch/mosfet, quick change spring etc.

Unfortunatly when the tappet plate broke it took over a year to resolve. If that had been someone's first AEG and they couldn't use it for an entire year they would have most likely pulled the pin on anything airsoft and they'd never have bought another Ares.

I have been told that this issue is being addressed and it's changing.

[NeoVeNoM]

this is turning ridiculous. 60rps? 3J? since when did airsoft turn into star trek laser beams?
In general you can buy all the parts you want for tune up, yes even with an Ares, just do research.
But If you don't have the skills to make em to good use, then it's rubbish. Regardless of the brand.

Besides most AEG's function improperly due to bad battery and bb's, or simply bad user.

[3vi1-D4n]

I sold my Ares CTAR21. Nice to hold, but very rear heavy not quick aiming and accuracy just wasn't as good as other AEGs. Certain mags didn't feed, it wasn't easily serviceable and the red dot wasn't working properly.

P90 on the other hand is different, its accurate (more accurate than the CTAR21), serviceable, balanced (with a pot metal upper) and easy to aim. If it didn't give me RSI I would've kept it.

I am hoping that Ares would make the PDR like the P90 without the screwed up grip.

Edited by 3vi1-D4n, 26 July 2012 - 10:24 PM.