sir naggedalot Posted April 7, 2013 Report Share Posted April 7, 2013 Just wondering if anyone who was playing Airsoft has ever had to make a claim against the sites Public Liability Insurance and if so what was the outcome? Link to post Share on other sites
Swerve Posted April 7, 2013 Report Share Posted April 7, 2013 There's an interesting discussion here that I found from the perspective of re enactors, it's relevant http://www.livinghistory.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=29195 Link to post Share on other sites
creepingfear Posted April 7, 2013 Report Share Posted April 7, 2013 How much are you suing - sorry - claiming for? Link to post Share on other sites
sir naggedalot Posted April 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2013 I am claiming nothing and never would but the other half is a different story,if I never make it back from Airsoft ,woe betide the poor people that would have her to contend with.............. I suspect that I wouldn't have a leg to stand on even anyway. It's a point that I was trying to make on another thread and Swerves Link is Fantastic,Thanks for that Swerve,very relevant indeed but I am worried its the insurance issues that might kill Airsoft in the end. I was told by my Site operator they will "av'e a go at first aid till the point that I need a ambulance"Then its down to me to call them otherwise they might have to pay for it.Bit like Schools. If your close to dying when they find you I suspect they leave you there untill someone else finds you... Link to post Share on other sites
Habakure Posted April 7, 2013 Report Share Posted April 7, 2013 Bit like schools? Care to enlighten? Link to post Share on other sites
Phubar Posted April 7, 2013 Report Share Posted April 7, 2013 sir naggedalot is debating on a different thread what is covered under public liability cover insurance. I made a post regarding this involving a reference from: http://www.parkinsurance.co.uk/Airsoft_Insurance.aspx where the company states: Having adequate public liability cover as part of your airsoft insurance package is the only solution for protecting yourself against the possibility of a participant becoming injured as a result of an accident on your site If that isn't the case, why would they imply it in the description of the product they are selling? Link to post Share on other sites
Habakure Posted April 7, 2013 Report Share Posted April 7, 2013 There is another cover regarding professional injury, it's mentioned in the link Swerve posted. I was interested in the school remark, as it looked as though it was relating to the comment, about finding someone injured on site. Link to post Share on other sites
Baddbaz Posted April 7, 2013 Report Share Posted April 7, 2013 Because it is total pish . I know personally several site owners who run several successful sites . And public liability is a legal requirement to run a site . As is abiding by health and safety guidlines . Have only heard of one serious claim against a site that was settled . As with any sport I would reccomend arranging your own insurance cover . Due to the fact that any public liability claim can be a long and arduous process. Especialy if has complications added to the claim .ie the participant breaking safety rules , not wearing the reccomended face protection etc . Link to post Share on other sites
Phubar Posted April 7, 2013 Report Share Posted April 7, 2013 My apologies, Habakure, I was recapping what had been posted on another thread and not answering your query. Following on from my last post, it was my understanding that public liability insurance covered claims from customers of a business as well as the general public. sir naggedalot's claim on this thread: http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/208995-wear-that-face-protection/page-4 that: Sites insurance are for third parties IE: Not the Site Owners or players but somebody who is there by mistake maybe or even without permission. flies in the face of what has been stated by insurance companies online, such as my link to Park insurance. Further explanation of terms - https://fml-insurance.co.uk/component/content/article/54-insurance-information/120-insurance-types#public-liability-insurance Public Liability Insurance should be considered if members of the public, clients or customers visit your premises. What does it cover?Public Liability insurance will cover you if someone is accidentally injured by you or your business operation. Note the mention of "public, clients or customers". sir naggedalot then went on to say: From the looks of it no one here so far understands the differences between Public Liability and Employers Liability Insurance !! Both address different issues that's why there are different polices for each! Referring back to fml insurance site: What Is Employers Liability Insurance? Employers Liability Insurance covers your small business if an employee is injured or falls ill at work. Employers Liability Insurance will meet the cost of compensation for injuries sustained to your employees (or illnesses), whether caused on or off site. It should be noted that this type of insurance only covers your employees. Note this refers only to employees and their claims towards their employer, the site organiser. Injury sustained by a skirmisher on a site does not have anything to do with Employer liability insurance products, even when said skirmisher is injured by a marshall from a test kill. That is covered under PLI. First party - insurers Second party - site organiser Third party - public and customers The PLI cover is a contract between the insurers and site organiser to cover any third party claims arising from injury or damage sustained by said third parties. How is that incorrect? What are customers to an airsoft site classed as if not third parties in this arrangement? Link to post Share on other sites
Habakure Posted April 7, 2013 Report Share Posted April 7, 2013 No apologies needed phubar, interesting read. Third party is clearly defined and is something that many people get confused by. Am still interested in the school comment (which will be backed up by links from the original posted). Link to post Share on other sites
Baddbaz Posted April 7, 2013 Report Share Posted April 7, 2013 Thank you .. I couldn't take any more brain damage arguments on this . Link to post Share on other sites
sir naggedalot Posted April 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2013 The School remark was because some schools do not wish the the Ambulance service for many reasons. One of them relates to them being billed for the service if its judged to be a non emergency. That's why they often call the parents in to call them. Link to post Share on other sites
sir naggedalot Posted April 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2013 I still believe that most if not all Airsoft PLI does not cover players,some still don't understand whos classed as the third party in Airsofting and if a Marshall shot a players tooth out you would have to sue him privately for damages. He would be covered for any damages by the sites PLI or ELI Link to post Share on other sites
sir naggedalot Posted April 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2013 Thank you .. I couldn't take any more brain damage arguments on this . I thought it was a fairly civil conversation with a little bit of banter. Not a argument,just a discussion! lol Link to post Share on other sites
creepingfear Posted April 7, 2013 Report Share Posted April 7, 2013 Because it is total pish . I know personally several site owners who run several successful sites . And public liability is a legal requirement to run a site . As is abiding by health and safety guidlines . Have only heard of one serious claim against a site that was settled . As with any sport I would reccomend arranging your own insurance cover . Due to the fact that any public liability claim can be a long and arduous process. Especialy if has complications added to the claim .ie the participant breaking safety rules , not wearing the reccomended face protection etc . Are you sure about the Health and Safety part? I'm pretty sure that it is only necessary to be aware of potential health and safety issues and what you/they/business are going to do to minimise risk/injury ect and do not need to spend £1000's on pointless bits of paper, as people would be led to believe. I'm also pretty sure PLI is also not a legal requirement, though could be wrong. Employers Liability Insurance is, I think, a legal requirement. Edit: Just checked. Some good guides here on what is legally required and what is not: http://www.insuredrisks.co.uk/store/faq_elpl.do#a3 In short: Public Liability Insurance - Not legally required Employers Liability Insurance - Legally required Link to post Share on other sites
sir naggedalot Posted April 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2013 Has anyone read the disclaimers that you sign at Airsofting or Paintballing for instance? When it gets down to it your not covered for anything you do to yourself or each other and the PLI is basically for Peep's who might get caught in the crossfire. Without a disclaimer we might end up running around with rubber knives shouting bang at each other Link to post Share on other sites
Swerve Posted April 7, 2013 Report Share Posted April 7, 2013 Those disclaimers don't actually count for a great deal. They do not absolve the site of anything they are actually potentially liable for, nor do they waive any duty of care for any party. Insurance and liability are not the same thing. Insurance covers liability (to a greater or lesser extent, hence clauses), liability itself is a legal argument Link to post Share on other sites
creepingfear Posted April 7, 2013 Report Share Posted April 7, 2013 Exactly. A lot of sites have these bits of useless paper without fully understanding what it is they are getting people to sign. Link to post Share on other sites
dinj Posted April 7, 2013 Report Share Posted April 7, 2013 The School remark was because some schools do not wish the the Ambulance service for many reasons. One of them relates to them being billed for the service if its judged to be a non emergency. That's why they often call the parents in to call them. Derailing the thread just for a second to point out that the ambulance service does not bill non healthcare professionals, eg: the public, if they are not judged as "an emergency". If you think you need an ambulance, call an ambulance. We don't charge, although sometimes we think we should Link to post Share on other sites
sir naggedalot Posted April 8, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2013 Derailing the thread just for a second to point out that the ambulance service does not bill non healthcare professionals, eg: the public, if they are not judged as "an emergency". If you think you need an ambulance, call an ambulance. We don't charge, although sometimes we think we should Are schools classed as the Public? Link to post Share on other sites
sir naggedalot Posted April 8, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2013 Exactly. A lot of sites have these bits of useless paper without fully understanding what it is they are getting people to sign. Lots of people sign these without fully understanding what it is they are signing! Link to post Share on other sites
Swerve Posted April 8, 2013 Report Share Posted April 8, 2013 *shrugs* truth is it doesn't really matter if they are used or not, I suspect their main purpose is to initially put people off from seeking legal advice should they have a problem Link to post Share on other sites
Habakure Posted April 8, 2013 Report Share Posted April 8, 2013 Schools have pla insurance for the students and also non-employees. If an ambulance/emergency service is needed, the school rings for one. I don't know what you where getting at earlier sir naggedalot, but lets be clear, I hope you don't believe a school would put a child's safety at risk. Of course, if you have a link, or can point me in the right direction, of proof, that a school(s) have a policy in place, that means they won't ring an emergency service, due to fear of being sued. Link to post Share on other sites
dinj Posted April 8, 2013 Report Share Posted April 8, 2013 And yes, they count as public. Link to post Share on other sites
sir naggedalot Posted April 8, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2013 Schools have pla insurance for the students and also non-employees. If an ambulance/emergency service is needed, the school rings for one. I don't know what you where getting at earlier sir naggedalot, but lets be clear, I hope you don't believe a school would put a child's safety at risk. Of course, if you have a link, or can point me in the right direction, of proof, that a school(s) have a policy in place, that means they won't ring an emergency service, due to fear of being sued. Have a friend whos son broke their arm at school and even though it was obviously broken they still refused to call a ambulance. During the investigation into the reason for the delay three reasons were as to why the school failed to call a ambulance and one of them was because of the worrie of increasing the finacial burnden the school was perceived to be suffering. This took place approximately eight years ago. Link to post Share on other sites
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