Lance Jackass Posted February 18, 2005 Report Share Posted February 18, 2005 Ive said this before and you laughed at me. Il say it again though because i believe it can work. http://home.howstuffworks.com/nail-gun2.htm This link shows how a solenoid component in an electrical circuit can turn electrical energy into movement energy. If a solenoid was attached to an airsoft piston, or an airsoft piston became the centre of a solenoid could this idea be used to compress the air needed for a bb to leave the barrel? A few questions though: do solenoids have a large drain on a battery? Are large voltages needed for a decent speed/force to be produced? Thanks Lance Jackass Link to post Share on other sites
watching wolf Posted February 18, 2005 Report Share Posted February 18, 2005 erm...where to start... the force produced in a standard solenoid is very small you'd need a HUGE electro magnet to propel a piston forward with enough power to compress the air in a standard cylinder not to mention the size of the battery needed to give the required shove! i'm sure there are guys out there with more Physics than me... equations please! oh yes and if you look at the end of that article you find... "Solenoids are effective and reliable, but they are somewhat limited in power output. A solenoid gun may not be able to drive a nail through tougher substances, at least not in a single blow." Link to post Share on other sites
nmcabecadas Posted February 18, 2005 Report Share Posted February 18, 2005 Study the Drozd airgun that uses a selective fire system and CO2 to fire the pellet. Is very efficient and can give you an idea of what to do. Link to post Share on other sites
McMadkat Posted February 18, 2005 Report Share Posted February 18, 2005 Daystate make an airifle that uses a solenoid instead of a hammer spring, kinda of the same idea. As for Airsoft, I don't think that it would be very easy as the current drain would be huge!! Another idea that I am VERY surprised that has never been tried (reason: it is a British invention!!) is the use of a gas piston instead of a main spring. Theoben use them in their airifles with great results! No loss of power, very high forward speed (insane ROF) easy to change power settings. Just an idea. McMadkat Link to post Share on other sites
Lance Jackass Posted February 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2005 Gas piston? like the gas parts used in normal guns or have i missed something? Does anyone know the formulae for solenoids then please guys? Link to post Share on other sites
Corporate_Black_Ops Posted February 18, 2005 Report Share Posted February 18, 2005 More like the gas ram which is most likely inside your chair, though without the retardation. The problem with gas springs is that they are far more expensive than conventional springs, set up the winder, feed in the wire and temper and you have your conventional spring, The Systema Training rifle would start to look like a cheap alternative once you started to get into upgrades and such. Theoben are beautiful guns... Link to post Share on other sites
Lance Jackass Posted February 19, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2005 Surely the problem with gas springs is that they would only work well in a bolty? Or are they semi/fully aswell. Anway if the solenoid idea worked it would be great, becuase the guns would be more mechanical than the aegs at the minute. For example there could be a 3 round burst option, bolt hold open device, bolt release catch, last round hold open on mags, have to cock the gun first time...... When yu say solenoids need a big voltage are we talking big as in 12v or 240v? And please anyone does anyone have the physics knowhow or formulae to explain how much voltage is needed to exert a certain force? Link to post Share on other sites
Corporate_Black_Ops Posted February 19, 2005 Report Share Posted February 19, 2005 IIRC the higher the voltage the stronger the magnetic field... Gas springs might well be subject to some heating effect if used at fully automatic rates of fire which would make them less effective. The other things you've mentioned are all possible with standard AEGs, Gas springs and solenoids would make little difference, the fact that we don't (airsofters in general rather than those of us who post on this forum) place enough importance on these features for it to be worth people like Marui putting them in. Link to post Share on other sites
Lance Jackass Posted February 19, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2005 Well solenoids would be much simpler and cheaper than aeg gearboxes. So a solenoid based gun could easily have a metal body and all the features of a systema rifle and more for the same price as a TM aeg. IF the solenoid would work. And the only way i can find that out is if i get these stupid formulae lol. Okay so a m100 spring will fire a o.2g bb at 328fps. But does anyone know how much force is needed to push that spring back? If i can get this to work it would make the most realistic gun around- minus the recoil and muzzle report. Theres even a way in which you can create a gas stoppage and a way of fixing it like those found on the gpmg and lsw, all through circuitry. Link to post Share on other sites
Corporate_Black_Ops Posted February 19, 2005 Report Share Posted February 19, 2005 Simpler yes, but cheaper? Most AEG gears are sintered alloy, they're cast more or less. A solenoid which puts out sufficient force to drive an AEG at current power levels would be rather more expensive IIRC. And as I say, everything else could be added to a standard AEG gearboxwith the same ease as it could to a solenoid "gearbox" but we aren't willing to pay the extra money, suffer the reduced reliability...etc. And we don't want to sacrifice our hicap mags (the simplest way to make the bolt lock on the last round is to have the mag follower disengage a switch but that doesn't work with hicaps, and I'm not sure of a way it could be made to... Link to post Share on other sites
watching wolf Posted February 19, 2005 Report Share Posted February 19, 2005 took one look at this and bottled it... but feel free to see if you can wring any sense out of the truly hideous Calculus http://www.netdenizen.com/emagnet/solenoid...enoidonaxis.htm from what i can see the power of the solenoid is a function of the number of winds in the coil x the current / the strength of the permanent magnet used as the "piston". As the strength of permanent magnets is pretty much a constant you're looking at Massive coils or massive currents either way the eventual outcome would not be practical for airsoft you might also want to look into the hydraulics of cylinder capacity vs barrel capacity the bigger the cylinder the the easier to drive it should be... edit umm...some more scary calculus for magnetic energy... http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/em1/...res/node61.html and some for fluid dynamics! http://www.ramindustries.com/fluid.html get a physics teacher to go over that lot with you the things to look at are the average volume of an AEG barrel the volume of your cylinder the muzzle velocity of your projectile (328fps) from this you should be able to get the speed your piston needs to move to move the projectile down the barrel but it's all complicated by friction and the compressibility of air! the maths as you can see is tortuous and i've got a headache even trying to do the easy bit (fps-mps conversion!) still have fun Link to post Share on other sites
Lance Jackass Posted February 19, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2005 Cheers watching wolf! something i might be able to use! So from what ive gathered: the piston needs to be made out of a soft iron or at least be attached to soft iron. The more coils of wire the better The more voltage the better Il have a better look at the formulae tomorrow when im bright eyed and bushy tailed lol. People say that the voltage needed to push the piston forwards is huge, but untill ive worked out all these formulae and have actual values,oes anyone have any evidence towards this? Link to post Share on other sites
Murph Posted February 20, 2005 Report Share Posted February 20, 2005 Maybe I'm missing something here... but wouldn't you want to push the piston BACK against the spring? a-la conventional gearbox designs? Cus if you push the piston forward.... How would the action cycle? You'd get one shot. Link to post Share on other sites
Crandall Posted February 20, 2005 Report Share Posted February 20, 2005 A solenoid may not work to actually propel a bb, but couldn't it be used as a way to recreate blow back. On the how stuff works page, the red piece that moves back and forth could create the blowback, just take of the smaller red bar that pushes the nail out, and it should work well. Link to post Share on other sites
nmcabecadas Posted February 20, 2005 Report Share Posted February 20, 2005 The solenoid may be used to open a gas valve. This electronic trigger with the possibility of a associated circuit board can enable either auto or burst fire and a very fast trigger response. Link to post Share on other sites
Lance Jackass Posted February 20, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2005 My idea was to reverse the current in the solenoid so that it moved backwards and forwards without the need of a spring. Hopefully the solenoid would be fast enough to elimintae the time delay sometimes found on aegs. Also as the battery gets lower this method would get more sluggish, so i was going to incorporate a gas plug (this will be an lsw model). In the gun there would be a seperate battery pack of very small voltage, so that the gun can keep firing for an extra 1-2 mags. Then the main battery would need to be changed which in real life would be the same as giiving the gas parts a clean. Cheers crandall13. I think the recoil might be quite light tho- like that of an ebb. Somehow i would like to involve a spring in the whole process so that the bolt can be cocked back then sent forwards. It looks like i might just have to have the solenoid recock the spring/piston so that the bolt can be used to cock the action AND fly backwards and forwards like an ebb/gbb when firing. Also i want to fit a tracer unit or LED into the muzzle (hidden) as standard to give a little muzzle flash. Link to post Share on other sites
Lance Jackass Posted February 20, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2005 Sorry if that sounds like im re-inventing the wheel- but most people would like to own a systema right? It would just be cool to have one that worked like that as standard for a decent price. Also hi caps would work in the gun- they just wouldnt work with the hold open/bolt release feature. Link to post Share on other sites
Warhogg Posted February 25, 2005 Report Share Posted February 25, 2005 I am not a physics teacher, but I am a Mechanical Engineer. Initially I didn't think this would work too well considering induction laws (when you energize a coil, the magnetic field builds up and fights the electrons moving forward - kind of like electrical momentum). After thinking about it some more. . . You might have something on your hands. I do think that the energy imparted to the bb will need to be more than just using a gas piston system, such as using a rod to impart some of the energy to the bb (like in the case of the selenoid nail gun). Have you thought about purchasing a used nailgun for testing purposes? Another place to get a much smaller selenoid that is fairly cheap is those golf putter things. The ones that knock the ball back to you when you hit ball into them. They use a selenoid to tap the ball back. Most of the models I have seen are adjustable too (depending on how far you want the ball to come back). Link to post Share on other sites
Lance Jackass Posted February 25, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2005 Are you suggesting that it might be possible to use a solenoid to "hit" the bb out at 328fps rather than blow it out with air? Link to post Share on other sites
Warhogg Posted February 25, 2005 Report Share Posted February 25, 2005 I was thinking that the solenoid could 'push' the bb partially and the gas charge would push it the rest of the way. If you made a double acting piston, it you could have a small gas charge built up on the backward stroke of the piston. The gas charge would be further charged as the piston moves forward, then all the pressure would be released right when all the forward momentum of the solenoid has been imparted to the bb. I don't know if this is making any sense. . . That is why I use a dry-erase board at work everyday to explain myself. Link to post Share on other sites
McMadkat Posted February 25, 2005 Report Share Posted February 25, 2005 Had an idea, I got this from my college yesterday as they are upgrading to sirens: Now that is one heck of a reciprocating solenoid: The only problem is that it is 220V AC and has a RPM of about 1200!! McMadkat Link to post Share on other sites
Lance Jackass Posted February 25, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2005 LOL cheers MCMadCat. Pitty about the voltage. Warhogg is there any chance that you could possibly draw up a quick sketch please mate? This sounds promisisng. Would your idea overcome the fact that solenoids are really weak? cheers mate LJ Link to post Share on other sites
bullzebub Posted February 25, 2005 Report Share Posted February 25, 2005 the distance of the stroke is too short too ... But it SHOULD work on DC but it will not reciprocate. is the goal a semi or full auto gun? Link to post Share on other sites
bullzebub Posted February 25, 2005 Report Share Posted February 25, 2005 anyone know how the power in those things are rated? Link to post Share on other sites
Lance Jackass Posted February 25, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2005 In the end i would like to make one that is fully and semi auto. However, just experimenting with the idea at the minute so one that worked in either would be a breakthrough lol. Any ideas please? cheers Link to post Share on other sites
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