Blow Forward Aeg Gearbox

[mcnuggets]

Airgun Designs, makers of the old Automag paintball gun, had a unique blowforward design that I think has potential in airsoft. Here's some animations on how Automags work:

 

 

 

Basically what's happening is high pressure air is entering into a chamber behind the bolt. It pushes the bolt forward until it the rod on the bolt no longer blocks the air. The air travels past the rod and through the front of the bolt into the ball. Since the high pressure air is no longer pushing the bolt it travels backwards thereby sealing off the system again. It then repeats the process by building pressure behind the bolt again.

 

The popular Smart Parts Ion seems to use a similar process. Instead of a spring it to use a solenoid valve to control the backward force.

 

http://www.zdspb.com/media/tech/animations/ion_twiek.gif

 

 

Anyway what this all means is that it might be possible to implement this all into an AEG gearbox. In fact someone over at classicairsoft.net has already produced a prototype. Here is the thread:

 

http://www.classicairsoft.net/forum1/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5751

 

And some pictures in case you aren't registered:

 

 

 

This seems to have fantastic potential. A simple full auto single action gas gun that is capable of high RPS and high velocities (well high velocities for the States, I don't think you Brits have it too high). Any thoughts on this?

[Nothingness]

Well if it works, it'd be amazing. For the record, the Ion uses a solenoid, but also has various amounts of electronics within it. The AGD design is simpler and is probably what would be used, due to not having any electronics.

 

Also, my AGD Tac-One is absolutely amazing. AGD owns pretty much every other paintball company aside from a set few.

[manfrk101]

I actually own an ion and i think that the system might work, but it might be too wide to fit in a normal gearbox. Also, once you have the operating system in, youd have to worry about bringing the pressures from a compressed air tank down to a safe pressure to operate the mechanism. Most Co2 and high pressure tanks are at 800psi, but there are some Low pressure tanks that operate around 500 psi. Because of this, youre also gonna need a regulator somewehre in, or outside the gun.

 

In my opinion, paintball guns are less operationally practical than the AEG gearbox design because they require compressed air rather than electricity from batteries you could just get from the wall outlet. Filling a tank with air or c02 is more expensive and harder to find than electricity. Besides, carrying an external tank for compressed air isnt as realistic than carrying a battery inside the gun. I could shoot with my M15a4 anytime i want, but when i run out of compressed air, i dont get to shoot my ion anymore until i take my tank to get it refilled.

 

In terms of electronics, the internal circuit board the ion uses is pretty decent. Though the stock board limits ROF to 17 bps, it features a decent amount of adjustability, but if you want more, there are many more aftermarket boards that run from 100-200+ dollars. These boards feature higher ROF, more fire modes, and things like that. One neat feature about most mid to high end paintball guns (including the ion) is that they have an "eye" system that can detect if there is a projectile in the breech. If it would be worked into airsoft guns, then they would stop firing when the mag goes dry.

 

As far as simplicity goes compared to automags, i woudlnt really know, because ive never actually seen one taken apart. However, there arent too many parts to the ion, and i find it much easier to work on than a aeg gearbox.

 

Also, the company Smart Parts that makes the ion is notorious for sueing people who copy their designs.

 

But hey, on the bright side, ive always liked the way paintball guns sound with the whole "pop pop pop" rather than the aeg "whirr whap whirr whap." The recoil is fun too. Its kind of ironic that the paintball, being less realistic than airsoft, has a more realistic firing sound than airsoft guns (not including gbbs) which are pushing for realism...

 

If you didnt know, madbull has a gearbox that runs on 12gram co2 catridges.

 

http://www.airsoftgi.com/product_info.php?...d67eb9d45022735

 

Kind of pricey though...

[Fred]

personally, well I don't know how reliable those things are ( I can imagine there pretty good) but the really don't have the kind of upgrade potetial that the curent gear boxes have. I can't go to the link, and the pictures won't work, but from the above diagram, it looks pretty complicated. Besides upgrading guns is what draws some of us to the sport, well besides the adrenaline rush and sweat ect.

But that is why we have paint ball, and airsoft, besides having paint ball makes airsoft look better, lol

[manfrk101]

Paintball guns such as the ion and automag have very high upgrade potentials. The automag has been around for many years, and there are a lot of aftermarket parts for it. Though the ion has only been on the shelves for a couple years, its been one of the best selling markers. Theres plenty upgrades for the ion that can boost performance and shot effeciency.

 

Upgrade potential? You betcha.

[Fred]

my bad

[Nothingness]

Well... I'd trust my life to my Tac-One (my Automag) working before I'd trust it to any high end AEG. However, I'd trust a TM more than an Ion since Ions and Smart Parts are kind of notorious for being lower grade.

 

The design, while impractical for some, does have it's uses. As said above, it'd add a more of a "pop" sound, making the replica much more menacing.

 

 

As for the upgrades, paintball upgrades differ from airsoft upgrades. You don't need anything to change the velocity, and most markers have decent enough parts. The only useful upgrades to the high end markers are more ergonomic type things such as grips and maybe a regulator or a new bolt.

 

Overall, the idea behind that gearbox is very cool, but it's more of a niche thing. Personally, I hate having a huge tank for paintball, which is why I like airsoft (and for being able to wield an AUG). So this thing isn't really for me.

 

 

And lastly, pressure is something that needs deep consideration. Low-pressure tanks are often very expensive, so that's another thing to note. Like maybe $200 for a LP tank. I wouldn't use co2. Co2 sucks.

[Fred]

What he said, besides I would want to upgrade my gun's enternals, and I don't care for big co2 tanks either. That like Nothingness said is why I prefer airsoft, also because it (to me) is more realistic.

[mcnuggets]

Well there's a price to pay for having that internal battery. There's really a finite limit to how fast a BB can fire and the ROF in an AEG gearbox. Once you start approaching that limit gears start grinding and other things start breaking down. The only way performance is going to increase is a switch to external gas. I mean MG42 rates of fire (>1200 rpm) and 450+ fps are possible with gas. Not that you would want to fire that fast (especially for the Euros, where they have laws against that.) This kind of performance though is nearly impossible with an electric gearbox.

 

The fact that gas is simpler means things will not break down as often.

 

And velocity and ROF are somewhat adjustable with pressure and spring changes. Unlike an AEG where a gearbox makeover would be needed.

 

As for the pressure, yes, some sort of regulator needs to go somewhere. Maybe on the tank itself since it's being run on remote anyway. Most people who run external air classics use a Palmer Stabilizer which brings the pressure down to a reasonable level (70-250 psi).

[blasterbob]

I could see this turning into a painball vs airsoft thread

[Sale]

I mean MG42 rates of fire (>1200 rpm) and 450+ fps are possible with gas.  Not that you would want to fire that fast (especially for the Euros, where they have laws against that.)  This kind of performance though is nearly impossible with an electric gearbox.

 

The fact that gas is simpler means things will not break down as often.

 

EU or Europe doesn't have any laws regarding airguns. Some countries in the area and/or union do, but not even most of them. The UK and Germany come to mind where they have limits, but in Finland for example you can purchase and own a 100 joule air rifle without any licence or registration. And it's not a wild example I made up: They actually make air rifles that powerful.

 

1200 rpm and 450 fps isn't a problem with an AEG gearbox if you know what you're doing (a Systema Magnum gearbox set puts out 17 rps @ 550 fps with a 12V large battery), but I have to agree that gas is a better solution for those applications. With a support weapon an external rig is less of a problem than with an SMG or assault rifle. Not that I think it's a problem with the latter either, but a lot of people don't like them.

 

Oh and as someone already mentioned: Madbull makes a CO2 operated AEG drop-in conversion. The principle is the same as with a blow forward paintball gun, but the unit has certain problems with consistency.

 

-Sale

[kronic]

UK Airgun laws = 12 ft/lbs for air rifles and 6 for air pistols the last time i checked.

[doopydoo]

If this revives classic guns and the like with external gas rigs and old school high ROF, power, I just want to get my word in that I like this and I think if a prototype is created it would be really cool and I might buy one if they get cheap enough.

[mcnuggets]

It would be great because airsoft (on the skirmish level in the States at least) is filled with ex-paintballers or current paintballers. All the equipment needed to run an external rig is practically there. You guys have to admit gas definitely has its merits. In fact in many ways, performance-wise, it is superior to electrics.

[doopydoo]

I'd use a classic gun if they weren't so expensive, with the crazy costly mags and rigs, not to mention nowadays the guns are extremely expensive too. If they can somehow get over that obstacle.... I'd buy an external rigged gas gun.