17 replies to this topic

[Pariah_WP]

I know LiPo batteries are all over the place, but Keith over at RSOV is stocking Firefox Lithium Polymer and LiIon Batteries now. RSOV is one of the few HK e-tailers that seems to be pretty universally trusted around these parts so him stocking these is a godsend.

A couple of things to remember:
- Learn all you can about LiPos before buying one. They can be dangerous if you are not in-the-know.
- Don't plunk one of these in a non-upgraded gun (at least get a mosfet for goodness sakes) unless you are willing to have to repair said gun.

Just great to see RSOV stock these.

Rubber duckies AND LiPos = heaven

Now I have to wait until the 20th for money and I can grab one of these for my project gun.

Sorry if this has been posted before.

(EDIT: Who'da thought you have to end a link...ahem)

Edited by Pariah_WP, 09 August 2007 - 09:16 PM.

[Xaccers]

Quite low discharge rates though, 12C
That's less than 15A on the 1200mAh ones!
You know what happens to a 15A fuse on a stock gun if you get a jam?
Imagine that inside a lipol...

[poorieuser]

The price is nice but has anyone used one of this brand before? I'm just a little leery of buying something that can explode if I use it wrong from Hong Kong.

[GI0VANNI]

My local dealer has done some abuse research on them.
When you use li-po it can "grown" volume just by the quimical reaction making this to "engrose" the bat, if this comes to a critical point the plastic protecting the li-po gel itself can suffer some breaks that lead to the mixing of li-po gel with O2, that means explosion.

This happens like in a nuke bomb, the little breaks means that the gel getting contact woth O2 implements the energy and cool factor and makes the ittle gap bigger and finally all the li-po explodes.

He still havent used the new bats but is not able to face the possible legal problems about importing bats that dont (by the moment) follow European Union safety rules. He is waiting for one of his dealers to run these to make new tests, especially the ones with "anti explosion devices" that he is really interested about.

Last test consisted on a pellet gun being fired against the li-po getting a nice blown, this is not comparable with a BB gun being fired, but we needed the answer to "do li-po really explode?? YES, THEY DO.

About charging, discharging current and so there is no problem with Systema motors, maybe lower quality ones do get burn but these face the 11.1 volts easily, amacing rate of fire but on the long term he still havent news (how many shots is able a 1.500 mah li-po to fire??)

He has used these li-po in model flying and they are like standart ni.mh but lighter and with better discharge ratio, I have to dare using one in a play for the moment but until september we dont have more games...

[Pariah_WP]

I have been running a SuperFly LiPo 11.1 12c battery for six months now and I love it. They don't slowly dip off in power like NiCad and NiMH batteries. They just freaking stop. It is both cool and not. Mid-skirmish it can be annoying. Mine hasn't blown a fuse yet, thank God, but I know others who have blown fuses with them and there is no significant difference. The fuse simply blows out.

I know there are risks with these and that is why only people that know what they are doing and have a properly upgraded weapon should even consider them.

Most of the risk with these batteries comes from physical abuse (IE dropping or bashing) or charging abuse. I personally wrap my LiPo in electrical tape just to give it that added protection. I know it isn't much, but any additional insurance is helpful. Also you HAVE TO know what you are doing when charging these. PERIOD. Also, never walk away from them during charging. I have a metal container for just that set aside outside me house for charging it. Paranoid maybe, but safe.

I have a team mate that has two of them and he loves his. I want to grab one to compare them to my SuperFly 11.1v battery.

[Xaccers]

Pariah, what capacity are your Superfly batteries though?
12c with a 2000mAh is fine as that's 24A
12c on a 1200mAh is of concern becuase it can only push out 14.4A and we all know that if your gun jams it can draw over 15A hence why 15A fuses blow.
Normal running could be only drawing 5-10A which those batteries can handle, but get a jam and you're drawing more current than the battery can handle.

Giovani, no offence, but some of what you posted suggests you don't actually know what you're talking about (systema motor in relation to maximum safe discharge rate, makes no difference what the motor is/explosion like a nukes, more like hindenburg/not understanding why batteries swell)

[GI0VANNI]

Oh! I am so terribly offended that tonight will have to get drunk (again)

Well,the systema motor is because I prefer confiding in the systema super torque up for the upgradings (it stands really well the 12 ni-mh bats, so 11.1 li-po cant damage it, but I have not the same confidence on "standart" motors)
As my retailer uses flying motors this is the most similar (he runs a model shop and was the first to introduce me the li-po, but the price drop makes me dont liking them for the moment as I can but maybe 3 ni-mh for its cost and I dont mind about 400 grs added to the gun weight).
The "nuke" is because when the sealing is brokent it starts a "chain reaction"?? that makes the gap bigger and so, not for the mushroom, but really like the hindenburg comparision, is much more apropiate .

Just hope all the "ofences" in arnies were like yours, this is more a teacher advice than a ofence, will endure my english comunication skills!

[Xaccers]

Oh! I am so terribly offended that tonight will have to get drunk (again)

Sounds like a plan to me

Well,the systema motor is because I prefer confiding in the systema super torque up for the upgradings (it stands really well the 12 ni-mh bats, so 11.1 li-po cant damage it, but I have not the same confidence on "standart" motors)
As my retailer uses flying motors this is the most similar (he runs a model shop and was the first to introduce me the li-po, but the price drop makes me dont liking them for the moment as I can but maybe 3 ni-mh for its cost and I dont mind about 400 grs added to the gun weight).
The "nuke" is because when the sealing is brokent it starts a "chain reaction"?? that makes the gap bigger and so, not for the mushroom, but really like the hindenburg comparision, is much more apropiate .

Just hope all the "ofences" in arnies were like yours, this is more a teacher advice than a ofence, will endure my english comunication skills!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The issue with the low discharge rate of the RSOV batteries is that if there is a jam, the motor can draw more than 15A of current, infact the initial pull of AEG motors is normally over 15A, which is why if you do several shots on semi in a row you can blow the fuse.
If the battery can only handle 14.4A and the motor tries drawing more than that, it can damage the battery leading to combustion, this is why batteries can explode if you short them out, they end up drawing more current than they can handle internally.
When this happens in a Li-pol, hydrogen is produced, which is then absorbed by the polymer, causing the battery to swell.
If more hydrogen than the polymer can handle is produced, the battery swells enough to split, exposing the hydrogen to oxygen in the air, the heat from the reaction in the battery can cause the hydrogen to burn, which is why I said Hindenburg
RC aircraft use brushless motors these days, different to AEG motors.
If you have a gun which can only take 8.4v mini's (like the SIG 552) or is a pain in the backside to change batteries in (like the G36 can be) and 1400mAh isn't enough or 8.4v doesn't give a high enough rate of fire, then li-pols are an alternative.
I can get a 7.4v 1300mAh 25C (32A discharge) lipol for £15
I can get an 8.4v 1400mAh 18C (25A discharge) NiMH for £11

For £4 more I can get a battery which can supply more than 25W extra giving a faster RoF

For £24 I can get a 7.4v 2200mAh 25C (whopping 55A discharge) lipol.
Fit that to a G36 or Sig 552 and you can shoot all day without worrying about running out of power so no battery changing.
Actually, I think I'll get one as a backup to my current one (I'm a support gunner with my G36 so can go through 9000bbs a day).
Would be cheaper than a 2400mAh 9.6v saphion that I was thinking about.

So as you say, for most people, li-pols are pointless.
For a few guns though, it does make sense if you want high capacity batteries, or a high rate of fire

[GI0VANNI]

This IS a CLASS, really.
Things I learned today:

1º Thinking in the motor-battery relation as the battery "giving" and the motor just working with the current the battery is able to "send him" has been my mistake for years.

2º The fuse then is there to ensure the battery is not asked to "pour" more potence that its internal materials can handle, so the fuse is there to avoid burning the motor or the battery?? (now I have this new question...) maybe both?

3º The cost of a li-po here is not the same like were you live, I get 8.4 1.000 mah (unknown discharge ratio, I am sorry) minis for 15€, and the 3.300 large ones for 25€, but a li-po goes for 45€ and up.

4º A 7.4 li-po is enought for a standar AEG, then 11.1 is too much?? or not and do you think it is safer to hold li-pos inside stocks or in an an-peq?

5º 9.000 round a day!! I cant imagine that, maybe in a hole day my group is able to handle such fire power, I myself hardly spend 300 a day but for the SL9 were I always dry 9.6 and even 10.8 batteries the li-po worhts it

[Xaccers]

2º The fuse then is there to ensure the battery is not asked to "pour" more potence that its internal materials can handle, so the fuse is there to avoid burning the motor or the battery?? (now I have this new question...) maybe both?

Yup, it's a safety feature, without it, if your gun jammed and you kept the trigger pulled, your wires would get really hot, including the wires in the motor, and also your battery, and batteries don't like getting too hot, they tend to go bang...

4º A 7.4 li-po is enought for a standar AEG, then 11.1 is too much?? or not and do you think it is safer to hold li-pos inside stocks or in an an-peq?

11.1v in my CA G36 ran great but very very fast.
Too fast for the piston which would eventually wear down and break, but they're cheap to replace.
The motor brushes also wear down quicker because the motor is spinning more.
My second motor wore down it's brushes, so I treated myself and got a Systema magnum torque motor
Testing the gearbox on an 8.4v mini gave a rate of fire similar to the CA motor on 11.1v
The CA piston lasted about 5 minutes of game play before it's teeth wore down, and about 2 minutes of test firing with the replacement piston
So I've removed a cell from my battery so now it's 7.4v, but gives a good rate of fire, which shouldn't kill pistons anymore

5º 9.000 round a day!! I  cant imagine that, maybe in a hole day my group is able to handle such fire power, I myself hardly spend 300 a day but for the SL9 were I always dry 9.6 and even 10.8 batteries the li-po worhts it

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yup, those are on heavy days, either on the rare occasion that we get a cheater turning up at Finmere, or if we play very long attack/defend games.
On average I use about 6000, but that should drop as my RoF is now slower.

PS it's 11pm, Saturday night, why aren't you drunk?

[Pariah_WP]

I thought that the MOSFET+fuse reset wiring setup stopped this from being a problem. Is this not the case? Help me out here because I was under the influence that the fuse reset and MOSFET were the way to solve this and that jams would just trigger the reset fuse. I was told that on ASR. Buying THESE had better be doing something as that is one of the things I was told on that forum...or I might get cranky with the person that told me that.

Edited by Pariah_WP, 12 August 2007 - 10:09 AM.

[Xaccers]

I thought that the MOSFET+fuse reset wiring setup stopped this from being a problem. Is this not the case? Help me out here because I was under the influence that the fuse reset and MOSFET were the way to solve this and that jams would just trigger the reset fuse. I was told that on ASR. Buying THESE had better be doing something as that is one of the things I was told on that forum...or I might get cranky with the person that told me that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Have to register to see the product, I guess it's a circuit breaker?
If it trips below 14A then fine, it'll cut the circuit at a lower current than what would damage the low discharge rate lipol.
Course if your gun is upgraded and pulling 14A anyway under full auto, you could end up tripping the breaker all the time.
Mosfets are just a way of running a lower current across the trigger contacts so they don't get damaged by 11.1v arcing across them.
If your breaker is set to trip at 20A, you'll still be able to damage a low discharge rate Lipol.

What capacity are your 12C lipols?

Edited by Xaccers, 12 August 2007 - 11:51 AM.

[MP5SD5]

@ Xaccers

Those are the same ones advertised on arnies here:
http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/classifieds...oduct=669&cat=7

so mosfets and the like.

[Xaccers]

@ Xaccers

Those are the same ones advertised on arnies here:
http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/classifieds...oduct=669&cat=7

so mosfets and the like.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cheers

Resettable fuse
- Self-resets after short-circuit, no need to buy replacement fuses.
- Rated for 16V, 24A, and low resistance of 0.003ohm.
- Slow burn type, won't be tripped by initial current peak.
- Less resistance and smaller than stock AEG fuses.
- Packaged in adhesive heat shrink to provide watertight seal of components.
- 6" of 16AWG red/black current wire.

So they're set to trip at 24A.
Sounds like a great idea for upgraded guns etc.
If you're using a 12C lipol though, you'd need to have one holding more than 2000mAh to be safe.
Though lets face it, when you can get mini NiMH's up to 1700mAh, having a lipol below 2000mAh is a bit pointless.

Pariah, if you have one of these and a lipol which can't handle more than 24A continuous discharge, you're likely to end up damaging the battery if you fired when the gun was jammed.
24A is 10A more than the RSOV batteries can handle.
To give you an idea of how much that is, it only takes 10mA across your muscles to make them contract, and 100mA through your body to stop your heart.
10A is 100 times more than that.
Most household appliances run at less than 5A, which is why many people in the UK replace the standard 13A fuses with 5A ones.

[Pariah_WP]

First I wanted to thank Xaccers and all for the help. This thread was never meant to be about the finer points of LiPos.

Now back to the aid which I am very thankful for. The battery I have right now is a 12c, 11.1v, 1800mah battery. (21.6A right?) I have learned that the trip rating on the resettable fuse is 25V at 15A. That is what it says on the fuse. ("15AMP25VOL" is what it says exactly.) Incidentally I have had 3 jams. None of them have tripped the resettable fuse so far. Is that good or bad? I really hope this is OK as the gun I have right now cannot really take a larger battery. It has barely the room for the LiPo as it is. I could go smaller, but I don't know what would be right for this setup anymore. I was assured this was perfect for LiPos. Now I have no idea.

Also my team mate has a similar wiring setup to mine and his Firefox (the ones listed at RSOV) has been through its' first jam. (Jamming fit actually...his drum mag is dying I'm afraid and his gun jammed no less than 5 times in the course of an hour. This tripped HIS ANGER FUSE if you catch my meaning.) This series of jams did not trip the fuse. This should not be good for the battery, correct?

Note to self: Never type at 02:00...just go to bed, Bubbalew

Edited by Pariah_WP, 14 August 2007 - 12:08 PM.

[Xaccers]

First I wanted to thank Xaccers and all for the help. This thread was never meant to be about the finer points of LiPos.

Now back to the aid which I am very thankful for. The battery I have right now is a 12c, 11.1v, 1800mah battery. (21.6A right?) I have learned that the trip rating on the resettable fuse is 25V at 15A. That is what it says on the fuse. ("15AMP25VOL" is what it says exactly.) Incidentally I have had 3 jams. None of them have tripped the resettable fuse so far. Is that good or bad? I really hope this is OK as the gun I have right now cannot really take a larger battery. It has barely the room for the LiPo as it is. I could go smaller, but I don't know what would be right for this setup anymore. I was assured this was perfect for LiPos. Now I have no idea.

Also my team mate has a similar wiring setup to mine and his Firefox (the ones listed at RSOV) has been through its' first jam. (Jamming fit actually...his drum mag is dying I'm afraid and his gun jammed no less than 5 times in the course of an hour. This tripped HIS ANGER FUSE if you catch my meaning.) This series of jams did not trip the fuse. This should not be good for the battery, correct?

Note to self: Never type at 02:00...just go to bed, Bubbalew

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're right, your battery can handle 21.6A continually. Your fuse should trip at 15A which is well below this so you shouldn't have a problem.

Li-pols also have a burst rating, which can be as much as 10C higher than the continuous, which basically means for a very short period of time, the battery can handle a higher current, though personally I'd rather not have to rely on this.
With regards to your friend, it depends how long he was pulling the trigger for after the jam.
I'd advise him to fit a 10A fuse and see how that goes, if it trips straight away, see if 12A or 13A fuses are available.

Given that a stock gun can blow a slow blow fuse with rapid single shots suggests that the initial current draw is at least 15A (slow blow fuses need the current to be at their rating for a little while to actually blow, or significantly higher than their rating to blow instantly) your friend with a 12C 1200mAh battery is definitely up in the burst region of the battery.

Why's he using such a low powered battery instead of higher capacity NiMH mini's?
Another thing, my G36 now runs off a 2500mAh 7.4v lipol which is smaller than an 8.4v mini.
I had to remove the spacers between the cells to get it thin enough though.

[Pariah_WP]

Thank you so much for all your help.

I will be getting Junkyard a 20c 1600mAh 11.1v SuperFly for his birthday. His fuse is set to 24A@16V, so that should be fine. (Why his is different than mine is a mystery as they come from the same place!) He has the space for a larger battery as he, like you Xaccer, is often a support gunner. His main gun has the space in the stock to take that big a LiPo.

REMINDER: What all this talk means is that anyone grabbing the 11.1V 12C 1600mAh battery at RSOV has to make sure that their trigger can either handle the current or fit a MOSFET and a fuse set to 15A or less. Avoid the 11.1V 12C 1200mAh that they have. It just isn't worth it.

[Xaccers]

Thank you so much for all your help.

I will be getting Junkyard a 20c 1600mAh 11.1v SuperFly for his birthday. His fuse is set to 24A@16V, so that should be fine. (Why his is different than mine is a mystery as they come from the same place!) He has the space for a larger battery as he, like you Xaccer, is often a support gunner. His main gun has the space in the stock to take that big a LiPo.

REMINDER: What all this talk means is that anyone grabbing the 11.1V 12C 1600mAh battery at RSOV has to make sure that their trigger can either handle the current or fit a MOSFET and a fuse set to 15A or less. Avoid the 11.1V 12C 1200mAh that they have. It just isn't worth it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

At just over 19A for the 12C 1600mAh, I'd be seriously worried about the quality of someone's gun if they need a mosfet for a battery with that low power.

Basically, as with most batteries, it's better to get them from proper battery shops, like overlander or component-shop for people in the UK.
And really, if you're looking at less than 2000mAh batteries, then stick with NiMH because you're basically ignoring the main reason to go to lipols (high capacity with small size).
If you want a higher RoF, get a 9.6v mini (if your gun can only take mini's) and use the money you'll save to buy something like the systema magnum.

I'm a support gunner with my CA36 running off 7.4v 20C 2500mAh with a magnum simply because pistons lasted 2-5 minutes on 11.1v with that setup.

It can take 4 hours to charge my lipol because of the way they're charged, compared with 40 minutes for my 1400mAh NiMH.
With normal batteries, charging is done by constant current until the voltage of the battery peaks, then it's cut off (if you have a smart charger it detects this, if you don't, you hope you're near that point by timing it).
With a lipol, my charger starts off with a really low current for the first 5 mins just to make sure everything is safe, then boosts it up to 2A and holds it there until the voltage reaches it's max point, then the charger keeps the voltage stable and slowly brings down the current until it's fully charged.

Edited by Xaccers, 14 August 2007 - 09:21 PM.