8mm engagements

[Wild Gunman]

At my Home forum in the US, a handfull of very active players have started getting the Marushin 8mm shotguns, and they are somewhat "hot" for teh fps they push using the heavier 8mm bb's when the fps is convderted to the .20g bb velocity, and we have been discussing what the propper engagement limits should be based on the Joules of the bb being fired. All of our work is done with the standard .34g 8mm bb. We have yet to come to a solid concluson, so I ask Arnies for some help. What do ya'll in the UK, or anywhere else, use for 8mm engagement/fps limits?

 

Incase it may help to see what has been covered, or just get a better idea, here's a link to the thread in which we have been discussing the matter.

Michigan, US Airsoft

[AGuy]

Interesting indeed, 8mm will have more joules, considering that the UK limit is 328 with a 6mm .2 I would just say that I wouldnt go over 315fps with an 8mm. I honostly don't think it is a big deal until you get really close engagements. Anyone else?

[TDS]

We use the same FPS limits with the heavier .29bb's , normal 10ft min engagement distance.

 

8mm rounds really dont hurt except on open skin, /normal/ bb's hurt on open skin too, honestly I dont see 8mm being any more dangerous even though they are shooting a heavier round at a somewhat higher velocity, the size of the rounds cause them to slow down so much faster that there really is no threat. In our testing they werent able to penetrate goggles, knock goggles off, or anything else we tested.

 

Yes they hurt, but anyone on our site understands that the moment someone gets an injury more than a normal welt from one, they are gone, so its up to the shooter to be responsible, just like a sniper rifle or a high ROF gun.

[Wild Gunman]

That does make sense. I agree, that it should really just be common sense to what your engagement should be. Since the bb's are heavier, there is more drag, and the larger size will distribute energey over more area than a 6mm, and for whatever reason, it seems like the 8mm lose energy much much faster than the 6mm bb's. I really wouldnt care, so long as the shooter is not taking point-blank face shots.

 

But, for the concern of safety, what do you use at your fields? something like:

up to x fps-10ft min

x-y fps -20 ft min

....etc.

 

For the .34g 8mm's, I was thinking something like:

<269 fps 5ft min engagement (<350 fps/.20g)

269-290 fps 15ft min engagement (350-378 fps/.20g)

291-330 fps 25ft min engagement (380-430 fps/.20g)

331+ fps 50 ft engagment. (430+ fps/.20g)

I just based this off oof converting the .34 velocity to the .20 equivilant...What do you guys think?

 

Heres our .20g standard engagements we use at all of our Michigan events:

1-350 fps - Arms length engagement limit

351-410 fps - 20 foot engagement limit

411-550 fps – 50 foot engagement limit, bolt action or permanent* semi-auto replicas only

551+ fps - Prohibited or allowed with permission of event organizer only

 

 

I see no sense in having an insane engagemnet on a weapon made for qcb becuse of the higher fps when the 8mm reading is converted to it's equivalant of the .20g 6mm bb.

[aeviv]

personally i think wen using 8mm you need to be more careful. However 331 FPS with a 50 ft ingagement distance? This seems a bit far too me

[Wild Gunman]

personally i think wen using 8mm you need to be more careful. However 331 FPS with a 50 ft ingagement distance? This seems a bit far too me

You have to remember though, that 330 fps is with an .34g 8mm bb, not the .20g 6mm the weight is almost doubled.

[John Dee]

Just so people dont get confused.

 

A 6mm, 0.20g, 1J = 328fps

A 8mm, 0.34g, 1J = 252fps

 

So thats the standerd power for most guns

 

The upper limit of 350 looks like this

 

A 6mm, 0.20g, 1.13J = 350fps

A 8mm, 0.34g, 1.13J = 268fps

 

Anything more than this and I would not alow them on normal gas.

Other than this your normal engagement rules will do.

If you don't mind me asking what power are they putting out on 134a Gas and Green Gas?

 

[Wild Gunman]

I have never seen tehm used with 134a, but:

One guy has the Marushin M1 garand, that is around 360-370 on green, with the .34g bb's,

and the shotties, I believe they are around 300+ fps on green with the .34g bb's

However, these numbers I know are typical of a warm day. Since it has gotten quite cold, I have no idea what they are chrono'ing at the moment.

[Sale]

A typical paintball marker has around 13-14 joules of muzzle energy. It's safe not only because the gelatine ball breaks upon impact, but because the impact area is larger.

 

So off the hip I'd say you can safely allow a higher energy for 8 mm weapons, compared to the usual 6 mm models. How much higher is something you'd have to try out by yourselves. The MEDs should then be defined by shooting over a chrono at various distances, to figure out how the BB slows down.

 

-Sale

[shinigami49]

I wouldn't really care. I know guys who wouldn't hesitate to shoot someone ten feet away with a 500 fps sniper with 6mm 0.2's.We'll get them back after, we really don't care about it that much.

[slo_one]

For our group its 300 fps, no mer.

[hhairsoft]

I would say that the engagement distance would be the most important factor to consider. Since you are using shotguns, I dont think fps is as important of a factor. I would say to take your minimum pistol engagement distance and add 5 feet.

 

just my two cents

[Mr.Hyde]

Have a surrender rule. Within 20-30 or less you get an instant kill since it is a shotgun. As long as you could have hit the guy that is. No sticking your head around the corner and saying "surrender" lol.

 

8mm guns are not as dangerous as some people think IMO.

[Bodgeups]

I don't know why people moan so much. For all the people who can quote the mathematics behind it, for all those who offer their opinions, how many people have been shot with 8mm guns?

 

It hurts depending on the range. So what? As has already been mentioned in this thread, 8mm bb's spread their energy over a wider area. But ultimately, we all feel pain when we're shot with 6mm bb's.

 

Now, if we're talking about physics then 8mm BB's aren't skirmish worthy at UK fps limits. But that topic has been discussed at length elsewhere, a quick search should yield you some good finds.

 

Accept them for what they are, a novelty .

[cirque]

5 ft minimum why dont you just give the guy a hi five at that point why evean bother with one that short

[hendrix]

if your concerned about getting hurt or shot to close your playing the wrong game. Im not calling people who think differently pansy's or anything, theres plenty of reasons for not wanting to get hit that close, some people can't show up at work with welts and some might think its unnecessary for a sport/hobby but the game is about firing bb's at eachother.

[my_plague_666]

don't forget that 8mm BBs are (obviously) larger and will therefore loose energy and speed faster than a 6mm due to air resistance/drag.

i personally dont think min engagement is necessary any more than with a 6mm gun, just dont shoot people up too close out of common curtsey just like with a 6mm.

[Gliderrider]

@Bodgeups. Agreeed, but I actually Have a fair collection of WW2 8mm Guns. They are nice, and on Green gas on a hot day in the UK, forget it.

 

The garrand has dificulty cycling the slide on 134a, which means either find an alternative or just use it for plinking, and showing off, and novelty.

 

Personally I have no problem with some one shooting me with a garand, even though mine chrono'd at 360 with .47's as long the normal rules of gamesmanship are followed.

 

And as for the M1 Carbine and K98, on Green they were doing about 420fps, so way too high again. Though these work on 134a but I dont have a working chrono.

 

I have no idea how different the 8mm shotty is to the 8mm rifle, I would think the difference is on the outside. In which case, id say if you are using it at a regular turn-up-and-play site day, ask the organisers in advance, but if you are using it with friends in private grounds and every one has one, lay a few simple ground rules and that should be more than enough.

[TheJim]

Meh as long as its under 328 and you're sensible it shouldnt matter

 

The site I use doesn't have an MED apart from for bolties, we're just told to use common sense and ask for a surrender if you catch them off guard at very close range

[Parsley]

Meh as long as its under 328 and you're sensible it shouldnt matter

 

The site I use doesn't have an MED apart from for bolties, we're just told to use common sense and ask for a surrender if you catch them off guard at very close range

 

 

which 90% of people do,

[Gliderrider]

Meh as long as its under 328 and you're sensible it shouldnt matter

 

The site I use doesn't have an MED apart from for bolties, we're just told to use common sense and ask for a surrender if you catch them off guard at very close range

 

Yes, well that leaves two problems.

1) As has allready been said the velocity is OVER 328fps

2) Even if the VELOCITY was under 328fps, it would have a greater KINETIC ENERGY because the BB itself weights more than a 6mm.

 

I think I know what you are trying to say, and I agree with you.

[Bodgeups]

Gliderider: In the time between my last post and now, I've owned the M1 Carbine, and currently own a genuine M500 shorty.

 

While I haven't chrono'd the shotgun, I don't see the point. The guns have an effective range of probably 60-70 feet, and a maximum of no more than 100ft. How can you (plural, not personal) justify an MED on that? Particularly in CQB, which the shotgun is designed for.

 

And as for the M1 Carbine, well that's a totally different ball park. The high power allowed it to achieve significant range, definitely on par with my 500fps APS2. However, beyond a certain distance the accuracy was practically rubbish. Even using 0.45g ammo, BB's would fly all over the place at the bottom end of the range. So ultimately the gun was limited to say 130ft (by my estimates)? I agree that in those circumstances there would be more play at shorter distances, but how would you agreeably determine an MED on a gun that isn't sensible to use inside of 50ft, but can't be used much beyond 130ft? On a large scale that can't be implemented as it would take far too long for marshals to decide what shots are good, bad, or plain ugly in terms of judgement on the players behalf.

 

My local site is lenient when it comes to 8mm. As long as the player is sensible, they can use the gun. And as my site is more a club than a for-profit site, this system works. The regulars hold their reputations and the site name in high regard, and as such do not abuse the fragile but effective system. But on top of that, as 99% of all 8mm guns are gas powered anyway, they can only be used for a short period of time in the year (or at least are for me, I see them maybe half a dozen times in a year).

 

So the point of this long rant? The site leader makes the call. In some cases it works, in others it doesn't. Players in the UK either get to enjoy 8mm or they don't. But don't forget, Marushin is a Japenese company. I suspect they designed many of their guns with focus on the Japanese market. It's just a handy coincidence that some of them can handle green gas for a period of time...

 

 

[Gliderrider]

I agree. Personally, even though they power is highter than a 6mm .20g I wouldnt have a problem with almost point blank (absolute minimum 15 ft) shots to my body, which is normally covered with webbing/ smock etc. HOWEVER it is down to the site staff to ultimatly say yay or nay and even a MED depending on what the chrono says the thing is pushing out.

 

BTW, I know of several sites in the UK which have a ban on 8mm because of variouse reasons, such as "They hurt more" and "I think Garands look ###### so you cant use it".

[Bodgeups]

A blanket ban is more often than not the best, if easiest, solution to an issue with many variables. Which is a shame, as I love my m500

[Gliderrider]

A blanket ban is more often than not the best, if easiest, solution to an issue with many variables. Which is a shame, as I love my m500

 

Oh, dont get me wrong, I can live with the concept of "My train set, My rules" but its just some of the reasons givven sound a bit suspect to some one who has owned and used them (Along side normal Airsoft guns)for knocking on 2 years.

 

TBH, I think the best solution would be that 8mm can only be used at special events (Period games for example)