The great 8mm debate!

[Trasher]

In my country most players use the same set of detailed rules called Hungarian Airsoft Rules (or MASZ). We are updating this "rulebook" about every 1-2 years, making small adjustments, adding "plugins", etc. There is a general consensus about these rules - except for one topic, which always lead to heated debate and controversy. Whether to permit the use of 8mm airsoft guns or not. For safety concerns, the default rule now is NO.

 

Those who don't want to see 8mm in the skirmishes say some of the guns are way too powerful (like the M1 Carbine shooting well over 3 Joule on green, some shotguns which can fire a single 8mm BB above 2 Joules if you load an incorrect number of BBs, pistols pushing 1.5 Joule, etc) and these guns are not adjustable unlike the PCS equipped Tanaka rifles... (Please note, everyone here uses green gas, hfc 134a is uncommon or simply unavailable in the local shops.) Another argument is that the typically heavier 8mm BBs retain more of their impact energy than lighter 6mm rounds. The questionable useability of the 8mm guns is also emphasized, which can lead to dangerous tinkering with the 8mm gas systems.

 

On the other hand, 8mm advocates say the worries are unbased, the round is perfectly safe since it has less penetration than 6mm, and a special set of rules (like different engagement distances, different fps limits) would allow safe gameplay.

 

So I would like to hear as many views on the subject as possible. What are your local rules for 8mm? What is your opinion on the 8mm? Chrono numbers on green gas (especially pistols, shotguns) also welcomed!

 

Please help us to end this debate once and for all!

[Catman]

At our site, if someone brings an 8mm gun then it must perform to the site's limits with a 0.2g BB.

 

For those wanting to use 8mm guns; in order for them to fall in line with the 350fps/0.2g rule, chrono results need to be:

- 0.27g = 300fps

- 0.34g = 268fps

- 0.45g = 233fps

 

If you're 8mm gun is single shot (which most are) then based on the 500fps/0.2g rule, chrono results need to be:

- 0.27g = 430fps

- 0.34g = 383fps

- 0.45g = 333fps

(minimum engage distance would apply for the 500fps based rule)

 

Other than that getting hit with a 0.45g 8mm delivering 2.3J is the same as getting hit by a (theoretical) 0.45g 6mm at the same speed (~333fps).

[The Chef]

same as Catman for us.

 

We've had plenty of 8mm goodness down here.

[gunfighters]

Another argument is that the typically heavier 8mm BBs retain more of their impact energy than lighter 6mm rounds.

they don't..

in general do them having around 2x the surface area they blead off engery faster then a 6mm

looking @ serface area to mass

a 6mm .2g has 0.00176 grams per square mm of surface area

a 8mm .34 has .00169 grams per square MM of surface area

the .2 will retain more engery as it has a better mass to drag ratio..

(not fully true as the 6mm will be flying faster @ the same engery levey so it will have a bit more drag, but then the extra engery neded to create the lifr for the hevery 8mm means more drag do the spin, so it just about evens out...ouch my head)

 

a 6mm .25 has .00221 grams per square MM of surface area

a 6mm .3 has .00265 grams per square MM of surface area

a 8mm .45 has .00223 grams per square MM of surface area

so over all running catmans sujestion of the gun neding to folow the same max engery rules as 6mm is about square. meds all aside you do need to plan for the axadent.. ie a point blank shot..

for many that may mean runing a regulated gass sorce such as a HPA tank to dial down the gun

these links should help you group make an informed disstion

http://cybersloth.org/airsoft/trajectory/06-C-01.htm

http://cybersloth.org/airsoft/trajectory/01-C-01.htm

[The Badger]

The Badger isn't allowed 8mm weapons, they keep telling him he'll shoot his eye out.... plus the field he plays at makes one buy ammo at the field and they don't carry 8mm.

[Bodgeups]

We're allowed to use them at my local

[Guinness]

Gah!

 

Shades of paintball field shenanigans!

 

I feel for you brother- places that do that don't get my Airsoft dollar that's for sure- Thats plain greed and avarice if you ask me.

[evilliboba]

The Badger isn't allowed 8mm weapons, they keep telling him he'll shoot his eye out.... plus the field he plays at makes one buy ammo at the field and they don't carry 8mm.

My former field didn't allow them. What they didn't know really didn't hurt them too much though.

 

I'm all for 8mm. Just follow common sense and not shoot someone too close.

[KTcerberus]

All of the local fields make exceptions of guns that fire above the 550fps w/ .20g rules as long as they are straight out of the box. I've never seen a 8mm gun out here anyways, besides mine. And its big and scary enough already.

[ardrummer292]

I won't pester you all with repeating the physics of the affair. I'm all for 8mm; nothing quite like a trio of "snowballs" flying at you in CQB.

[greg]

Please Please Pleease, never ever start a thread with the phrase 'in my country'.

 

I'm afraid that Sasha Baron-Cohen, (playing Borat) has done that one to death & I am conditioned to laugh at anything following that line.

 

 

Greg.

[Trasher]

I don't watch Borat, but keep those votes and views coming!

 

Any chrono numbers on 8mm pistols using green?

[Sale]

I've chronoed 350 fps with 0.34 gram BBs from a Marushin Bren Ten using top gas. That's almost the 2 joule legal limit of Hong Kong.

 

To discuss the 8 mm issue rationally, you should work from the bottom to the top.

 

When it comes to safety, you need to define what is the maximum impact you will allow on your skin during gameplay. Most CQB fields have a 1 joule limit, and no engagement distance. This is a good starting point.

 

From the impact on the skin, you can rationally figure out minimum engagement distances for higher powered weapons: You just need to know how the BB slows down. You can do this easily with 6 mm BBs for various weights, thanks to Mr. Variable's Airsoft Trajectory Project. You can verify the results with a chrono placed downrange, to see how fast the BB passes the optical sensors at 5 meters, 10 meters, 15 meters... For example if a high powered sniper rifle BB has slowed down to 1 joules of energy at 15 meters, then the MED should be 15 meters.

 

Most of the MEDs at the moment in various rules are set using the Stetson & Harrison -method, which means that someone just said a number and others agreed. Maybe you can also take a look at the MEDs you have for 6 mm weapons at the same time as you discuss 8 mm ones.

 

For 8 mm BBs, you need to do the work again. First you should shoot on bare skin from point blank with a set energy, and shoot next to it with a 6 mm BB. Alternatively, you can use gelatine and measure how deep it goes, or several pieces of cardboard one after another... There are lots of ways to compare the physical effects of the BB. You just need to find the answer to: "At what energy is the effect of a 8 mm BB similar to the 6 mm one at 1 joules?". Most likely that energy is quite a bit above 1 joules.

 

When you have found what kind of impact from an 8 mm BB that is similar to 6 mm BBs in effect, you start to figure out how the BB slows down during the flight, and use that data to set the MED's.

 

As many have said, the 8 mm BBs are heavier and have typically more muzzle energy. But on the flipside they will face more drag, and they have a larger impact area. So you should not only look at the chrono and freak out when the energy is higher than with 6 mm BBs.

 

-Sale

[Battle Brother]

if you can take the pain play it.

[DarkLite]

TBH, I think that there's no difference - the slight increase in impact energy is offset by the higher drag and lower range of most 8mm weapons.

 

That being said, it may just be that I'm biased because my M500 is so lovely.

[newtoairsoft]

8mm rounds pose no significantly greater risk so long as they chrono before takeing the field like every other airsoft weapon should.

[luvs2shoot]

the field i play at doesn't know the difference between 6mm and 8mm bb's. all they care about are the paintballers that also use the place

 

upside: rules are much more lax. the 350 fps limit is more like 400+

downside: paintballers and paint everywhere. nasty

[UrPeaceKeeper]

the field i play at doesn't know the difference between 6mm and 8mm bb's. all they care about are the paintballers that also use the place

 

upside: rules are much more lax. the 350 fps limit is more like 400+

downside: paintballers and paint everywhere. nasty

 

I have two viewpoints on this one from my home state's playing field and the other from Arizona's viewpoint.

 

Nebraska:

Where we are at in Nebraska we play on a church camp's non used land. We pay him everytime we come to play (like $5 per person a game, not too bad really) and our rules are VERY VERY strict. Right now there are no rules for 8mm's but I have a feeling they will have to follow the same requirements as any other gun would on the field. Chrono below 400FPS w/ .20's if full auto capable and chrono below 550fps w/ .20's if Semi only. That being said everyone who plays there is very generous and we already have a MED of 20ft and will generally call safetykills out past that so no one gets injured.

 

Arizona:

This is my observation of my roughly a year of playing in AZ. Games are free, rules are very lazy. Generally speaking people play with the Lionclaws rule set despite all of the games having a 400 fps w/ .20's rule, so that means there are alot of people pushing the 415-425 mark to get that extra 1 foot of range. On top of all of that there is no minimum engagement distance. 8mm's are NOT regulated, are not required to chrono, and do not have a MED!!!!! I can say safetly that I dont play very many of the games w/ no MED. Its downright dangerous for 400 fps guns especially when few people have respect enough to aim for the chest when that close (most aim for the head). I've also noted that there seems to be alot of "Supermen" (**Cough** cheaters) that play here as well, and for some reason my Warrior 1 hitting someone's chest plate just doesnt count when I see the damn thing bounce off their body armor, of course I dont call it because I dont do that

 

I think 8mm's should be allowed, they bring a new dynamic to the playing field.

[you can`t shoot me]

cop 357 134a 180 abbey ultra 250

derringer 134a 170 abbey ultra 210

m1 134a 300 abbey ultra 430 green 475

357 revolver green 350

 

That the fps of some of my guns, i took those measurements a while ago and i think that was with 0.45 bbs but i can`t remember now.

 

Also my m500 shotgun fires around 300 and my guards gun around 250 but i can`t remember what gas that is with and wether i did it with 1 or 3 bbs. I also have my kar 98 listed at 350 but i can`t remember what gas or bbs i used.

[dr_pepper_lover_airsoft]

im changing my stance a little, perhaps in field games its ok but a cqb accident could still occour,