89 replies to this topic

[Brom]

Right just trying to gauge opinions here

UKARA have found Z1/GZ innocent of all charges after an investigation

This is

Despite the Chair and Vice Chair of UKARA deeming the matter important enough to resign over

Despite most members of UKARA not having been involved in the investigation at all

Despite no checks into the people added on the db as to their validity

Despite no one even attempting to get in touch with the airsofters who raised the complaint

GZ/Z1 seem to have been found innocent by the simple expedient of asking they if they were guilty, they said no, so all well and good.

Opinion around a couple of forums is that most think its a coverup

Opinions from Arnies?

[Samm]

Is there any proof that it's a cover up any more than there's proof that it actually happened?

[Stealthbomber]

I'm glad to see this issue has been treated with the level of earnest investigation that it warranted.

It's good to see that UKARA have conducted themselves with a level of professionalism that is sure to show the airsoft community in a glowing light.

So, umm, how do we ask UKARA to go away if we, as airsofters, feel that they're tarnishing the image of our sport, ripping us off for no tangible return and offering no support to the community after imposing themselves as our governing body?

[TDS]

Is there any proof that it's a cover up any more than there's proof that it actually happened?

I dunno lets go query ASCUK, they know /everything/

hahaha

But really, its pretty obvious /something/ was going on, weather it be rumors, actual going-ons, miscommunication, or whatever is up in the air.
Its pretty difficult to nail down a retailer for anything, after all you could always call each rotation of a game a "game" and bypass the game-rule-agreement altogether, with classic airsoft rules lawyering logic.

[Samm]

There's a statement on the UKARA website regarding this incase anyone missed it:
http://www.ukara.org.uk/

Although we are not obliged to publish our associations internal affairs on this occasion we have chosen to do so.

The UKARA Committee has been reviewing the evidence relating to accusations levelled at several UKARA members of malpractice.
In relation to Ground Zero Game Site we remain unconvinced that it has breached the UKARA code of conduct.

The message on Ground Zeros game web site was poorly worded causing some readers confusion.
UKARA has asked them to change this to improve the clarity.

They state their message intent was to say :~

“After satisfying the conditions for GZ site registration your UKARA information will be added to the database immediately by Zero One Airsoft”

Their concern was that some players having completed the requirements for registration to the database were having to wait an excessive period of time before being listed.
Unfortunately their wording could be construed to mean that instant database registration would occurs after one visit.

We have been assured by the game site manger that this has never been the case.

The manager has stated that :~

"As site manager I run the GZ membership scheme, and have from the start, we have always implemented the 3/2 preregistration rules".

There has been no evidence to challenge his statement.

In relation to other accusation we are still checking the validity of them.

[Brom]

of course that doesnt mention the admission, since retracted, nor were any of the complaints investigated further than asking GZ/Z1

[QQexDERA]

Organising a lynch mob then Brom?

I've read through the thread on ASCUK, you know the one. People demanding this, that and the other of UKARA - but like the red top newspapers, i wont believe anything - either way - until i see the following:

1: Cast iron, 100% verifiable evidence - not whats posted on a forum.
2: An independent auditors report.

I'm no fan of GZ - i've played there a few times, and haven't had a single decent day there, and there's a few things that i'm not particularly keen about when it comes to Z1, but for some reason, i simply cant shake off the feeling that the level of debate over at "the other place" is related to certain peoples dislike of those two organisations - not what they may or may not have done.

**edit**

Ater re-reading the last few pages, it looks like those "certain people" are now angling to put together their own database - or some other system. "Vested interests" is the phrase.

Edited by QQexDERA, 23 January 2008 - 07:39 PM.

[Xsjado]

And of course the UKARA hasn't got any "vested interests" at all has it?

[QQexDERA]

Bingo. I think you've hit the nail on the head. Ukara have vested interests in this. So do GZ, so do Z1. But given a certain Admins post over there intimating towards a system they are trying to set up, that must be considered as a vested interest as well.

There is only one way this can be sorted, an independent auditor who has the power to do whatever is needed to get to the truth.

[Brom]

1: Cast iron, 100% verifiable evidence - not whats posted on a forum.
2: An independent auditors report.

1. Its out there ask UKARA
2. Would be absolutely love that maybe you could convince UKARA to agree?

[Samm]

1. Its out there ask UKARA

Out where? How could you possibly know this? What proof do you have that Ground Zero actually did anything wrong?

Please stop stirring it and making unnecessary drama, you just look silly.

Edited by Samm, 23 January 2008 - 09:04 PM.

[Brom]

I dont think I look quite as silly as UKARA atm

[GuzziHero]

Bingo. I think you've hit the nail on the head. Ukara have vested interests in this. So do GZ, so do Z1. But given a certain Admins post over there intimating towards a system they are trying to set up, that must be considered as a vested interest as well.

Admins of The Other Forum are talking about making their own database?

Seeing as there is only one The Other Forum admin I trust (the pleasant Scottish chap ) I wont be rushing to sign up to that.

[Brom]

its true theres talk of that and its as a direct reaction to whats gone on with UKARA, I think theres plenty of scope for a couple more databases out there. The south yorkshire airsoft mob seem to be doing very well with theirs

[Samm]

I dont think I look quite as silly as UKARA atm

So that would be a "No I don't have any proof and I'm just shitstirring" then.

[Brom]

oh dear if youre not going to contribute without throwing ###### like that around why bother?

If you read my post its about the lack of a proper investigation and the fact that there's no transparency to it .

Oh and there was, I believe, an admission from GZ/Z1, since retracted, which was deemed serious enough for both the Chair and Vice Chair of UKARA to resign

[Samm]

If you're not going to think about this in sensible manner and just appear to be joining the lynch mob drama squad for kicks, why bother?

Despite most members of UKARA not having been involved in the investigation at all

Despite no checks into the people added on the db as to their validity

Despite no one even attempting to get in touch with the airsofters who raised the complaint

Is there any source for this info?

Edited by Samm, 23 January 2008 - 09:53 PM.

[shogunblue24]

its true theres talk of that and its as a direct reaction to whats gone on with UKARA, I think theres plenty of scope for a couple more databases out there. The south yorkshire airsoft mob seem to be doing very well with theirs

Aye, we are doing well. I'm a member of SYA and proud of it. Shaun and the SYA staff have worked hard to provide us with everything we need and a membership scheme that works. I can buy rifs from most major retailers through confirmation via SYA. I can also buy secondhand rifs in the same way.

Nevertheless, the recent UKARA fiasco still worries me. Whether or not there was any wrong doing, the lack of information and general secrecy in UKARA's approach to the situation has left many UKARA members feeling let down. UKARA are supposed to be an organisation trusted with preserving the future of our sport. Many airsofters don't feel UKARA can be trusted at the moment, simply because they weren't provided with enough information. I'd suggest UKARA improve the way they deal with such situations by providing the airsofting community, the people they depend upon to earn a living, with the details when they are properly confirmed. It'd at least avoid allegations of deceit and cover ups.

[Samm]

I've got a funny feeling that the UKARA would be so secretive if a mass crowd of nutters at ASCUK hadn't gone "OI! THEY'RE IGNORING THE COMMUNITY BURN 'EM ALIVE!" after no UKARA admin had posted in a couple of days.

It's got nothing to do with us and people shouldn't be so presumptuous.

[The Chef]

on the face of how the Landwarrior incident was so swiftly and publicly dealt with resulting in a resounding public rebuttal by UKARA, and how swiftly this has been kept in house and hushed over by UKARA would lead a suspicious mind like my own to wonder 'why?'.

Obviously there are a few people who really know what happened.

now this bit is quite important.

Its NONE of our business to know the internal dealings of UKARA.....
...... BUT in the interest of consumer confidence, both in the retailers and in the system and therefore potential Home Office confidence in the system.

I think it would be pertinent for the ex-chairman and ex-vice-chair to actually state the reasons behind their resignations and any information they may possess.

Now I'm not after a Z1 witch-hunt or a UKARA bashing session, I would just like to see some clear information to dismiss any rumours.

But hey, its UKARA's ball and they can play with however they want.