LFP Batteries, by ALEEES, distributed by Madbull Options

[thartwig]

Havent seen these anywhere else...so it should be news.
Off of Airsoftnews.eu

We “cook” this project about 1 year and treat this project as our top secret. (one of many…) Now, LFP batteries will be released in June!

ALEEES is one out of 5 companies who can produce LFP batteries and is the only one who has soft pack for RC and Airsoft. MadBull is proud to be the solo partner with ALEEES in Airsoft and RC industries.

LFP batteries is one of the latest Lithium batteries and it is “totally” safe! LFP is non-explosive and non-flammable. Check testing video It is a Sci-Fi style of high tech Lithium batteries.

In order to keep cost low, MadBull will *sell directly* to end users at low price.
3 types will be available:
PowerX-01: $50
EnergyX-01: $35
EnergyX-02:$35

Charger / balancer: $50

More information available soon!

Best Regards,

MadBull Airsoft

(IMG:http://airsoftnews.eu/e107_images/newspost_images/madbull_poly_bat_2905.jpg)

Here's madbulls site link

This post has been edited by thartwig: May 30 2008, 03:06 AM

[FaRKle]

There's a lot of marketing BS in madbull's site...

1) How the heck are they making it "9.6v?" LiFePO4 cells are 3.3v each...

2) Wayy inflated Lipo battery prices.

3) Failed mention of 7.4v lipo batteries (which can be had for under $25).

4) Claim that lipo mah/price isn't as good (only if using Madbull's heavily inflated lipo battery prices. Also lipo batteries have a higher energy density than LiFePO4 aka more mAH).

5) "Ok" battery life with lipos. Lipo batteries get at least 2 shots per mah and up to 3.5 depending on the quality.

6) Inflated lipo charger & balancing unit prices.

7) Safety listed as "bad." We're on like gen 3 or 4 of lipo batteries. They've worked out the bugs and GREATLY reduced the risk of fire/explosion. Only through substantial abuse will your lipo blow. Li-ion makes a worse explosion than lipo, but we're still using them everyday in our laptops, cell phones, ect. Even cell phones these days have gone lipo (all the nice LG phones run off of lipo, so does my iRiver DAP, and nobody's complaining).

8) Bad high evironment temperature. Good lipos are rated by the manufacturer to be operated between 32F (0C) to 140F (60C). These madbull batteries are rated from 14F (-10C) to 140F (60C). Thunderpower states that their batteries aren't to go past 160F (71C). Essentially, they're the same.

Oh well LiFePO4 at least will comfort those who are insecure.

[PECEMKR45]

farkle i dont quite under stand the nature of your post ?
I understand you must do that "new math " but 3.2 per cell times 3 cells = 9.6,
link to manu http://www.aleees.com/pdf/723496Power_e.pdf

I do agree they did not offer enough information to determine if the price comparison was "apples to apples"

7.4 lipo again proper information for apples to apples

I find battery charger prices low period , I have never had a charger for less than 100 us to which i found the features i deem as necessary , but again not enough information for "apples to apples"

safety issues with lipo is bad period , what other items do you own that can blow up period , without a actual onboard regulation system and even then failures happen lipos are just plain scary , and should be , if you treat them with proper respect i have no doubt you can escape serious injury or damage but by no means are they even close to a "safe item"

Until further information is availble i am going to take a wait and see stand on this , but i am always excited about new tech.

[FaRKle]

farkle i dont quite under stand the nature of your post ?

The news post is touting these LiFePO4 batteries as THE ULTIMATE LITHIUM BATTERY SOLUTION, which they are not. It just puts down current lipo technology so much and scares people away from using them. I'm calling them on their marketing bs.

I understand you must do that "new math " but 3.2 per cell times 3 cells = 9.6,
link to manu http://www.aleees.com/pdf/723496Power_e.pdf

True in that spec sheet their cells are 3.2v each. I'm mainly familiar with the LiFePO4 cells put out by A123systems and their cells are 3.3v each. A123systems is the world's largest nanophosphate cell manufacturer. Their cells are the ones put in GM hybrids.

[Angry]

If they design one to go in an M4 stock tube that gives the same performance as an 8.4v then I'll have some.

This post has been edited by Angry: May 30 2008, 07:35 AM

[XavierMace]

There's a lot of marketing BS in madbull's site...

1) How the heck are they making it "9.6v?" LiFePO4 cells are 3.3v each...

2) Wayy inflated Lipo battery prices.

3) Failed mention of 7.4v lipo batteries (which can be had for under $25).

4) Claim that lipo mah/price isn't as good (only if using Madbull's heavily inflated lipo battery prices. Also lipo batteries have a higher energy density than LiFePO4 aka more mAH).

5) "Ok" battery life with lipos. Lipo batteries get at least 2 shots per mah and up to 3.5 depending on the quality.

6) Inflated lipo charger & balancing unit prices.

7) Safety listed as "bad." We're on like gen 3 or 4 of lipo batteries. They've worked out the bugs and GREATLY reduced the risk of fire/explosion. Only through substantial abuse will your lipo blow. Li-ion makes a worse explosion than lipo, but we're still using them everyday in our laptops, cell phones, ect. Even cell phones these days have gone lipo (all the nice LG phones run off of lipo, so does my iRiver DAP, and nobody's complaining).

8) Bad high evironment temperature. Good lipos are rated by the manufacturer to be operated between 32F (0C) to 140F (60C). These madbull batteries are rated from 14F (-10C) to 140F (60C). Thunderpower states that their batteries aren't to go past 160F (71C). Essentially, they're the same.

Oh well LiFePO4 at least will comfort those who are insecure.

A few counter points in their defense, although I agree with much of your sentiments.

1) LiFePo4 cells are, but older LiFe cells are not. I have a couple of 9.6v LiFe Stick batteries sitting in front of me right now.
4) While the LiPo's are a better density, everything I have seen so far shows LiFe's are cheaper.
6) I paid $45 for the LiFe stick battery AND charger. Can you show me where I can get a decent LiPo with a basic charger and balancer for $45?
7) While that is true, a lot of places ARE selling older ones (especially rebranded "airsoft" ones). So it is still a valid concern.

All that said and done, I don't see any mention (could be missing it though) of specifically what chemistry the batteries are. Based on the 3.2v rating, I would guess these are the older cells rather than A123's current ones.

[tome]

That's not a totally unreasonable price for a LiFe. As a LiPo user of 2 years now the features that attract me to LiFe is the ability to get around 9.6v and also that the packs cannot be destroyed by running them too low (a very legitimate problem for 11.1v lipos). The number of cycles for a LiFe is also about 10 times that of a LiPo, so that will have to be factored into any cost comparison.

The main difference i can see between these and the A123 cells is that these are flat, like the lipos, rather than the cylindrical A123 ones. Looking at the cell dimensions the energy density is a bit lower, with an equivalent sized lipo holding around 1800mah.

[Edmiles]

If they design one to go in an M4 stock tube that gives the same performance as an 8.4v then I'll have some.

Yeah, if they can make one that fits in an M4 stock tube and gives the performance of a 9.6v well I know I'd pay a good bit for one.

[TDS]

Cry Cry

All batteries are not created equal.

[Magsz]

Anyone got the cell dimensions available?

[davedawg123]

The individual cells should be either 18650 (18mm diameter, 65mm long) or 26650.

[uscmCorps]

Talking to Madbull, I tried to really reinforce the idea that airsofters want a battery that'll fit into the M4 buffer tube. In order to make that a reality, I believe Madbull may have to manufacture their own buffer tube and collaborate with ALEEES to design a battery that will fit in it. Think about it... Pretty much all the major airsoft manufacturers of the M4 style gun (TM, G&P, CA, VFC, G&G, King Arms, etc) all use the same type of buffer tube (except Star who uses a realistic buffer tube). However, all these manufacturers' buffer tubes all have slightly different internal dimensions. This would make Madbull developing a LFP battery to fit in all these guns very difficult. The best way to get around this is for Madbull to make their own buffer tube that will work with the majority of airsoft manufacturers' M4 Style AEGs and can fit the LFP battery.

Talking with many players all over the world about what they want and what they don't like in airsoft technology over the years, one thing I hear many many airsofters complain about is that they do not have decent batteries that will fit in the M4 buffer tube. A lot of them don't like crane stocks, and a lot of them don't like putting the battery on the front of the gun (as this makes the gun too front heavy). They want a battery that fits in the buffer tube.

So I made a concerted effort to really reinforce the idea that if Madbull can make a custom fit buffer tube that works with most guns, and develop a battery that will fit in the buffer tube, they will have a very successful product.

Madbull's response was that it was indeed a very valid idea and that they're doing more research into it.

*Fingers crossed!* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy.gif)

[FaRKle]

I tried to really reinforce the idea that airsofters want a battery that'll fit into the M4 buffer tube.

Three A123 cells w/ wiring might fit in an AR buffer tube. The cells are 62mmx27mm (2.44" x 1.06"). So it'd be about 8" long for three cells and a plug.

[uscmCorps]

So it'd be about 8" long for three cells and a plug.

I think 8" is longer than the internal cavity in pretty all variations of AEG M4 buffer tubes, including the new one made by G&P specifically for LiPos. Currently I'm using the Firefox Lipo batteries in my buffer tube. They fit, but I can't collapse the stock completely, and the safety issue has me a little nervous once in a while.

[davedawg123]

Three A123 cells w/ wiring might fit in an AR buffer tube. The cells are 62mmx27mm (2.44" x 1.06"). So it'd be about 8" long for three cells and a plug.

G&P buffer tubes are 25mm diameter. I think most airsoft buffer tubes are similar.

9.6v 18650 lifepo4s are a bit long and would probably only be capable of a fully extended stock (like an 8.4v nimh 2/3A stick), if at all.

There are 3.7v 18650 10-12C li-ions currently being tested for airsoft (7.4v powers up to 450ish FPS setups). Should be short enough to keep all but the fully collapsed position.

This post has been edited by davedawg123: May 31 2008, 04:54 AM

[Edmiles]

G&P buffer tubes are 25mm diameter. I think most airsoft buffer tubes are similar.

9.6v 18650 lifepo4s are a bit long and would probably only be capable of a fully extended stock (like an 8.4v nimh 2/3A stick), if at all.

There are 3.7v 18650 10-12C li-ions currently being tested for airsoft (7.4v powers up to 450ish FPS setups). Should be short enough to keep all but the fully collapsed position.

Damn, I can't stand my M4 stock fully extended, always fully retracted or a little bit extended. Looks like I'll be sticking with the old PEQ for a while longer.

[jumper]

I've been doing an insane amount of research on a123 batteries (Li-Ion) the last week and barring cheapbatterypack . com's stance on them (who ironically sells them despite saying they don't?!)
EVERYTHING in my research indicates that a 2s1p 6.6v 1100mAh pack (which easily fit's in a buffer tube, fully collapsed) is plenty for at least a 1j setup (30C x 1100mAh = 33,000 or 33amps) (most sub 350fps setups draw well less than 30amps). They aren't THAT expensive and would work.

They are more stable than li-po.
can be deep discharged without killing the battery.
Have INSANE discharge rates (30C nominal 60C peak!!)
Are the RIGHT format for fitting a buffer tube. (death to the PEQ box!!)
While slightly more expensive in some places one could make their own quite easily.

balancing wire and power wiring sites are out there for any configuration under the sun.

I plan to create a couple of packs and do some testing. If this works I see a revolution in M4 airsoft power sources.

I'm reposting this in it's own thread for discussion.

Damn, I can't stand my M4 stock fully extended, always fully retracted or a little bit extended. Looks like I'll be sticking with the old PEQ for a while longer.

This post has been edited by jumper: Sep 24 2008, 10:41 AM

[Angry]

I'd be interested to hear your findings jumper.