56 replies to this topic

[AnotherJesus]

I know this is on the news page already. I'd just like some discussion about it, figured this was the place to post.

The article, for those who haven't seen it: http://arniesairsoft.co.uk/news2/3158

The conclusion certainly seems to go Madbull's way. What a surprise, their German distributor says they sell better parts than any other company... What gets me, is the raw data. Seeing as it's all in German, it's somewhat difficult to determine what it actually means. From the graphs it would seem to me that Prometheus barrels are better. Did the batch test barrels, or test individual barrels? What are the graphs actually showing? What are the statistics on the right hand side relative to? I'll stick some of this through a translator and see if it makes any sense. If someone could shed some more light on these results it would be appreciated.

Edit:
Angegebener wert - More indicated worth, probably means what internal diameter the barrel is sold as.
Durchmesser absolut - Diameter absolutely.
Schwankungen vom innendurchmesser - Fluctuations of the inside diameter.
Gesamtnote - Total note.
Tuningpotenzial - unable to translate.

Edited by AnotherJesus, 18 June 2008 - 04:40 PM.

[Beast06]

Oh look, it's Madbulls German distributor, how funny they should say that.

I also wonder why they didn't test PDI's 6.05mm barrels..........

[Utty]

I was going to comment on this as well.

The graph shows the uniformity of roundness in the barrel.

The prometheus barrel is indeed near perfectly round, and it only deviates from claimed inner diameter (of 6.03mm) by 0.006mm - by actually measuring 6.036mm. This is utterly awesome. The Systema barrel is not far behind, very impressive.

The Madbull gets better marks by having a smaller inner diameter than advertised. Claimed is 6.03mm, real is 6.016mm. Roundness is nothing like the prometheus (still good though).

While I'm sure the Madbull V2 is a great barrel, and even tighter than the PDI 6.01mm, I know what brand of tightbores I'm buying from now on. The way I'm reading the article: prommy ftw.

[AnotherJesus]

PDI 6.05 and 6.01 barrels are made useing the same cold hammering technique, according to the x fire pro shop blurb. I am inclined to completely ignore these results. They seem to have tested barrels, and figured out a technique to calculate a figure that makes Madbull's barrel look best. The conclusion is likely completely fallacious.
Call me skeptical if you like, I am.

Edited: I should learn to use quick reply, it has a spell check function...

Edited by AnotherJesus, 18 June 2008 - 04:49 PM.

[Utty]

Yeah. I'll ignore the Overall scores and Upgrade Potential scores. The raw data shows plainly that the prommy is best - just look at that near-perfect roundness.

[Panzergraf]

Wow, look at the roundness of the Element barrel!
Looks better than Systema, though I didn't pay enough attention in German class at school to actually understand the supplied data
Not nearly as awesome as the Prometheus though, but who cares at that price...

[guiliman]

Very funnny.

This test is not made by the german distributor, this test is published in the german Airsoft Magazin
and by the way I am the author.

Why the PDI 6,05 was not tested?
Very simple, because I had not every barrel from every company to test.
Most barrels are bought from my personal money...

This test was made by me with the first barrels just for fun and in the meantime,
I had the chance to get more and more different barrels to test.

Yes very nice the Element barrel, unfortanly it has a diamater of 6,08mm ....

@AnotherJesus

Think what you want, these test was made with a machine which is ISO9001 certified, I you have no
idea what this means.... not my problem. This machine has a overall precision of 0,0014mm,
if you think you have better equipment, please show me that my tests are wrong...
If you able to understand german, than you can read the test setup in this article.

Don`t flame a article that you can not understand.

[AnotherJesus]

OK then. Perhaps you would like to explain to me why the Madbull barrel is shown as the best barrel? To me certainly this seems a strange conclusion, when the data images you show seem to lead to Prometheus barrels being of a smoother bore. I respect the equipment used, and your technical skill. I'm very uncertain as to why the article seems to point to Madbull being better than Prometheus.
No hard feelings, I didn't mean to insult you. I pretty much had a moment of, "Throwing an insult at this article is victim less." I do apologize.

[Magsz]

Honestly, you guys are getting caught up in petty BS.

I use madbull barrels, prometheus barrels and soon to try PDI 6.05mm barrels. Im sure they're all great. One isnt better than the other because you know what, if i can shoot at my target and hit it at 120+ feet reliably then im ok with whatever is in my gun. ALL of the popular tightbores on the market allow me to do that so i really dont give a rats ass about scientific data.

[guiliman]

In the conclusion of my test, I never sayed Madull is the winner.
I made a lot of tests with barrels and it took several hours to find a system to get objective notes.
I created a system where, roundness, the real diameter and the advertised diameter compared to the
real diameter get involved into the note.

If a company lies with their the diameter they get less better notes as a company which advertise the
correct diameter. Madbul and Star now have barrels which are tighter than advertised and because
of this, this counted as no deviance from the advertised diameter.
Sorry for my as german speaker it is very complicated do describe this...

I descided that a tighter barrel will get a better note and that a smoother barrel get a better note.
But with my tests, I found that a tighter barrel as more impact on the overall precision than a smoother.
Dont get me wrong we are talking about a difference from 3 micrometer between Madbull and Prometheus,
this is nearly nothing...

The problem in fact is, that the BBs has a factor 10 more deviance than the barrel and the HU unit has much
more influence on the precision on a tighter barrel as on a less tighter barrel.

Sorry again, for my bad english, it is hard to translate all these technical stuff correctly.

@ Magsz

And this is where you are wrong, sorry.
My first idea to do this test was, to check if is true what they advertised.
And some company make barrels which are not real tightbores.
The normal player has no chance, to check if the barrel is a tightbore, a good thightbore or
a real bad one... Take a look to Element, King and to one of the bigger players: JBU.
I tested 7 barrels from JBU, to be sure that this not a single false barrel....

Edited by guiliman, 18 June 2008 - 06:14 PM.

[Panzergraf]

Ah, I 6.08mm is a far cry from the 6.04mm they advertise.
Still though, very round.

While I agree with Magsz that real world performance matter more than graphs and numbers, I suddenly feel like changing the Element barrel in my G36 for a Prometheus. I had a prommy in it before, but installed it in another gun that needed the accuracy more.
I guess number and graphs does matter for many airsofters peace of mind...


Guiliman, maybe you could post a translated version of your article, so that more people can understand all of it and not just make assumptions after looking at the pictures?

[AnotherJesus]

Thanks for the explanation Guiliman. That's certainly interesting that Madbull have chosen to interpret the results in such a positive light for themselves. The raw data is certainly most appreciated by me and the whole community, I'm sure.

[guiliman]

At this time I have only a very old english version, with only 13 barrels which was translated by a candian player for me.
But this is a real very old version.
If have to check which parts can be taken to clearify some things.

And I have to translate a lot to get this to the last version, this would take several days to get it done.
I will try that, but don`t wait for a wonder.

BTW:

I will publish even more barrels as soon i get the chance to get they in my fingers.
For the 4. Airsoft Magazin, i will publish the Classica Army 6,04mm steel and the Deepfire 6,04mm.
This test will grow, the good thing here is, I get more popularity and may be this makes me easier to
get more and more barrels to test.

My intenion was to make this test for you and not for the distributors.
Bye the way, I have some little trouble with one distributor because of these testresults...
but this is not your problem

Edited by guiliman, 18 June 2008 - 06:15 PM.

[guiliman]

@ Another jesus

I mean Madbull is not really wrong.
You can interpete the tuning potenial (I tried to reflect the best overall performance in this note)
or which is ths tightest barrel or which is the smoothest

as the winner.

[fal]

I would be more concerned about consistancy of bore surface/diameter through out the whole length.(from tip of barrel all the way down to the end.) Or was this test conducted this way?

In my experience, tighter doesn't always mean "better". But the consistancy of bore size and surface finish/treatments through out the whole length. Also there are other factors such as built material and durability of any special treatment done to it.(KM TN for example) Once these coatings wears out, it no longer retains same consistancy.

PDI is usualy highly regarded due to the fact that it is made out of high quality stainless steel and of its consistancy through out the whole length, in both bore size and finish. And the fact that it doesn't have any funny coatings done inside that we don't really have to worry wearing out. For KM TN finish for instance. They get easily damaged and scratched.

Another factor is cut out for hopup rubber. The angle and dimension of this cut is also very important.

[Sale]

It's a funny interpretation to automatically say "tighter is better". If I make a 5.5 mm inner barrel, is it then the best possible Airsoft barrel? No. There has to be a clearance between the barrel and BB, or the hop-up will be disturbed. There's also a question of the barrel density that can affect vibration.

I'd be much more concerned about the roundness of the inner barrel. In this regard the PDI and Prometheus inner barrels look much better.

A big hail to Guiliman for producing the raw data. It's important to check every now and then, if manufacturers are making what they advertise, and it's good to have some rough guidance for potential of the barrel. This kind of measuring instruments aren't available to 99.9% of us.

Any interpretations of this test is the responsibility of the reader, not Guiliman. If I tell people I think PDI and Prometheus makes the best barrels and you disagree, then you can argue with me and not Guiliman, right? Similarly, if Madbull use this to advertise their barrels, it's up to their marketing team.

I was surprised at the percentage the Deep Fire "6.02" (actual 6.04) inner barrel got. In another independent test they got high quality BBs stuck in one point of the barrel over and over again, and found that there was a big deformation on the inside. I wouldn't use one even if I got it for free.

-Sale

Edited by Sale, 19 June 2008 - 04:14 AM.

[guiliman]

Argh damn browser..
I wrote over two hours and now my entire answer is gone ...

And this was a lot
Okay, today I am frustrated and I have no more energy to answer that flame post before.
May be tomorrow...

fu**

Edited by guiliman, 19 June 2008 - 07:52 AM.

[eel one [COE]]

For comparison between barrels when one are in the marked for a new one this data is very valuable. Now I must agree with Sale, tighter is not better necessarily. When I intend to buy a new barrel I need to trust the manufactures specifications of the barrels. Therefor I will rather put down my money for a barrel that shows the best relationship between stated size and measured size. I will under do circumstances accept the madbull barrel as the best one of them, they simply deviate to much and in the wrong direction. If the PDI-01 barrel had the same deviation it would have been 5.996mm which would be useless. Due to this I will much rather have the Prometheus barrels which only deviates 0.006mm from the stated diameter and have an exceptional fine roundness of the bore.

[snowman]

This has the smell of a holy war for some.

If the diameter WAS less than 6mm it would be (potentially, few BBs are actually as big as 6mm...) problematic, but it isn't - It's 6.02 essentially, which seems a good compromise between 6.04 and 6.01.

This whole thread (started by someone who couldn't read German and got the wrong end of the stick about the impartiality of it - Which even a cursory glance makes fairly obvious) seems to have a high degree of messenger shooting.

Props to guiliman for taking the time to do some scientific testing, just a shame it's wasted on some people, who'd rather stick to their preferences and pick (incorrect) holes in thorough research.

Cheers.

[Apex]

guiliman, stick it in notepad / word if it's going to be a long post then copy paste it over, avoids that issue