Airsoft Informer Posted August 4, 2009 Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 Precursor by Marlowe - this user was banned for unscrupulous commercial activity. The entirety of his post is untouched below, but please be wary of the content posted (and read the official response by P-Life below). Sorry but this is Not Spam I apologies since I didn't include the information in the 1st post I will do so now allowing all members to read, comment, and inform their fields & shops about this serious issue with P-life and PLA products AKA Mad Bull & G&G. Linked From Here http://pubtalkpress.blogspot.com/ Monday, August 3, 2009 The Madbull and G&G Bio BB Scam Madbull boasts that their so-called biodegradable bbs are made of P-Life, a so-called OXO Degrading compound. G&G on the other hand uses PLA, a substance that has been around for decades. On July 22, 2009 the P-Life debate exploded onto the world scene. The Europeans have decided to officially condemn P-Life and all the so-called OXO Degrading compounds. These substances do not degrade and are toxic. PLA has been proven not to degrade in the environment. Madbull also claims there are no heavy metals in the bbs and has actually produced a TüV certificate. This is either false or Madbull's factory has failed somewhere. Madbull's advertisement (click on our MediaFire link to the right) claims they have used P-Life patented technology (US 6482872 included in the MediaFire link to the right): heavy metals are cited in the patent literature to promote chain scission and which will result in fragments that are "ultimately" biodegradable. This is supported by the test executed by BPI (MediaFire link to the right) where Cobalt (see definition below) was identified in the mix. This heavy metal is not regulated in the EU, USA and Japan (but it is in Canada). This is the little trick (or loop hole) in P-Life. The UK Environmental Agency condemned OXO in the Scottish parliament in 2005. This decision constitutes a legal precedent in the EU and has influenced the Italian Antitrust Commission to heavily fine a chain store for using the statement "100% biodegradable" with an OXO supplemented product. Let me try to shed some light on the big picture. Let's say for the sake of argument that the world of Biodegradable resins is divided into GEN 1, GEN 2 and GEN 3. The oldest and most common GEN 1 compound is PLA. GEN 2 is mostly formed by so called OXO degrading compounds including P-Life. GEN 3 is still shrowded in trade secrets since it appears to be the only stuff that actually works. PLA or Polylactic Acid (thermoplastic aliphatic polyester) is actually fermented plant starch (usually Corn, Potatoes or Beans). It is used by G&G in their biobbs where they claim it is Biodegradable. This is an untruth of the worst kind. PLA is a product that will only biodegrade under conditions established only for an Industrial Compost facility. In the US there are only 46 facilities that meet the standard for Industrial Compost and they will not accept normal household trash and only 3 will accept PLA. Yet, G&G claims and actually shows pictures on their bags of their bbs ability to biodegrade in the environment. This is misleading and does not reflect the real world. For most of the world, and especially the US, a large majority of plastic goes to a landfill and some is recycled, very little goes to one of those 3 Industrial Compost facilities. PLA will only biodegrade in the conditions set for an Industrial Compost facility and virtually no G&G made PLA bbs go to that kind of facility since no game fields we know of actually spend the time and financial resources to pick up bbs that have been fired into the environment and send them to an Industrial Compost facility. G&G's claims are misleading and their bbs do nothing to help the global environment. PLA does not biodegrade and the hard evidence shows it actually uses more energy to make than normal plastic. Some useful leads can be gained from an authoritative paper by SPC found in our MediaFire host sharing account. Please click on the link to the right for a free download. SUMMARY: (1) P-Life are defined as "OXO degradable product". (2) OXO degradable products are made of NAPHTHA an oil industry by-product. (3) Ample evidence shows OXO and PLA are NOT BIODEGRADABLE. (4) OXOs leave plastic powders and heavy metals in the eco system. (5) Naphtha is a toxic substance dangerous to man, animals and plants. (6) European Bio Plastics distances itself from the OXO products. (7) USA Fed Trade Commission sues Kmart, Tender and Dyna-E June 19, 2009. (8 ) NAD chastises company for claiming Biodegradation with OXO. (9) Italian chain store sued by Italian Anti Trust Commission. (10) UK Environmental Agency condemns OXO in Scottish parliament. (11) OXO industry efforts to lower EU standards REFUSED. (12) Walmart institutes a Sustainability Index and effectively goes green. LINKS AND PROOF: (1) P-Life - Following web sites define this substance as an OXO. This compound is due to be banned in the EU. > http://www.p-life.com.hk/Main.html > http://www012.upp.so-net.ne.jp/p-lifeasia/indexen.htm (2) Introduction to Polylactic Acid - PLA (http://www.sustainablepackaging.org/). > pdf saved to MediaFire link in the link to the right of this post (Online link removed by SPC but we have the document saved in the MediaFire file host). (3) Oxo Degradable are made of Naphtha. Naptha is Toxic to man & ecosystem: > http://www.biodeg.org/degradable.htm > http://biogreenproducts.biz/ (4) European Bio Plastics condemns OXO: > http://www.european-bioplastics.org/media/files/docs/en-pub/European_Bioplastics_OxoPositionPaper.pdf > http://www.packagingdigest.com/article/CA6672665.html > http://pakbec.blogspot.com/2009/07/european-bioplastics-distances-itself.html (5) California State University Chico Foundation report shows that the OXO products DO NOT DEGRADE (free download). > http://www.ciwmb.ca.gov/publications/default.asp?pubid=1266 (6) Federal Trade Commission Announces Actions Against Kmart, Tender and Dyna-E Alleging Deceptive 'Biodegradable' Claims. http://www.blogger.com/www.ftc.gov/opa/2009/06/kmart.shtm . Accessed on June 19, 2009 (7) National Advertising Division examines advertising for GP Plastics Corp. "PolyGreen Plastic Bags. Case Report. Publication Date: March 5, 2009. Accessed on June 19, 2009 > http://www.nadreview.org/DocView.aspx?DocumentID=7238&DocType=1 ( 8 ) Papers > http://www.bpiworld.org/Default.aspx?pageId=373709 > http://pakbec.blogspot.com/2009/07/european-bioplastics-distances-itself.html (9) Test Standards If a product is unable to pass the following test standards the it CANNOT BE CERTIFIED AS BIODEGRADABLE. > http://www.bpiworld.org/Default.aspx?pageId=190421 (10) Italian Official GAZETTE No. 2, 30 JANUARY 2006 Italian Antitrust Authority in 2005 sanctioned a retailer distributing "100% degradable" shopping bags made with PE supplemented with pro-oxidant additives. > http://www.gazzettaufficiale.it/ DEFINITIONS: NAPHTA - Naphtha is a common name for the industrial solvent Petroleum Ether. Other names include benzine, X-4, or Lingroin. Chemically, naphtha is a mixture of straight chained hydrocarbon-ethers, straight chained alkanes, as well as some aromatic hydrocarbons. The actual composition of the naphtha will depend on its boiling point (indicative of the distillation temperature). Naphtha is a product of crude oil distillation in an atmospheric distillation unit. The refineries often produce a light naphtha blend and a heavier naphtha which is can be used as a gasoline additive. Naphtha is also extremely effective at solvating non-polar compounds and is used frequently in organic chemistry. COBALT - Although cobalt is an essential element for life in minute amounts, at higher levels of exposure it shows mutagenic and carcinogenic effects similar to nickel (Cobalt Poisoning). In 1966, the addition of cobalt compounds to stabilize beer foam in Canada led to cardiomyopathy, which came to be known as beer drinker's cardiomyopathy. Powdered cobalt in metal form is a fire hazard. After nickel and chromium, cobalt is a major cause of contact dermatitis. We have a right to "Know the Facts" about what we are buying! Link to post Share on other sites
Azulsky Posted August 4, 2009 Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 Doesn't take all that jazz to tell they don't bio degrade, the gig has been up on bio bb's since they were conceived. The only way to save the environment is trigger control!! My advice remains the same; close your mouth and you wont have to eat them. Link to post Share on other sites
Airsoft Informer Posted August 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 Don’t get me wrong a "few companies do produce Truly Bio Ammo", I don’t want to change the topic to who makes True Bio ammo but instead lets focus on what these known violators G&G, Mad Bull, and any company using P-life or PLA are putting in our fields, rivers and what’s being eaten by our wild life. Link to post Share on other sites
snorkelman Posted August 4, 2009 Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 its all a conspiracy by the lizard people isnt it? and why does this need two threads started on it when its already in the news section? Link to post Share on other sites
masakarijoe Posted August 4, 2009 Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 ok, the question remains... which BBs can i eat? but seriously, i want to know which BBs are truly biodegradable in the real enviornment, because thats what i would like to use. otherwise, its just the standard ones that i have now. -Joe Link to post Share on other sites
Jin15 Posted August 4, 2009 Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 Very interesting article! I've been using G&G BIOs for a year or so now and loved them, partially because of their great consistency and partially because I thought they were biodegradable. Seems the later is not the case. I too would like to know what, if any, airsoft BBs are truly biodegradable. Perhaps Bioval? They did get biodegradable certification from the US Department of Natural Resources. Link to post Share on other sites
Azulsky Posted August 4, 2009 Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 The extra hours i would have to work to buy the same quantity of Bioval(if they are actually degradable, more likely their clear nature means i cant see them as easily in the grass)that i use of other brands means i would be creating more waste than bioval is saving in their tree hugging manufacturing process. Link to post Share on other sites
Airsoft Informer Posted August 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 We are in the process of formulating a list of the currently known Manufactures that are producing a “Truly Bio BB Product”. We currently don’t know the contents of the Bioval bbb but since the US Department of Natural Resources has confirmed the products approval on all DNR lands; we are accepting the US DNR letter as proof of a “True Bio BB Product” until proven other wise. We are in the process of contacting numerous BB manufactures including Bioval requesting confirmation that all ingredients in their BB’s and all byproducts of their decomposed BB product are safe, nontoxic, and inert. Through research, confidential industry sources, both US and EU published documents & patents regarding P-Life & PLA have all combined to provide the listed credible information. We have also provided down loadable copies of the document so the public may reconfirm the authors of all cited information. Definition of Biodegradable: capable of being decomposed by natural means via the action of biological agents, especially bacteria. Facts: Dead leaves are and stick’s are example of “True Bio” items; depending on the environmental conditions place on the stick and leaves respectively each one will brake down or Biodegrade at a rate proportionate to the environmental conditions place on the stick or leaves. For example a stick or leaves in a swamp with high humidity, high naturally occurring bacteria, and lots of sun light with Biodegrade faster than the same stick in the desert. Fact: Because a product is water soluble or dissolves in the environment quickly doesn’t mean it is a natural, nontoxic and/or a “True Bio Product” in contrary just because a Product does not break down in most or all environments quickly doesn’t mean that the product is not natural, nontoxic or isn’t a “True Bio Product” Conclusion: just because a “Bio BB” dissolves in water doesn’t make it a “True Bio Product” it only mean its water soluble and also bad for all guns in high humidity areas. Also a “ True Bio BB” make take as much time or more time in comparison to a stick to begin degrading our goal is assuring that when products are marked as Biodegradable in the Airsoft Industry the do not harm the environment and are safe, nontoxic, inert and “ Truly Biodegradable “. Link to post Share on other sites
Azubi Posted August 4, 2009 Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 Airsoft Informer, What are your goals in spreading this information in such an aggressive manner? What is your agenda? Link to post Share on other sites
Airsoft Informer Posted August 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 our goal is assuring that when products are marked as Biodegradable in the Airsoft Industry the do not harm the environment and are safe, nontoxic, inert and “ Truly Biodegradable “. Link to post Share on other sites
Marlowe Posted August 4, 2009 Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 Please state which company you work for(I presume Bioval) or I'll be obliged to ban you on the basis of the forum not wanting to be used as a method to purport libel against your competitors. Thanks. Link to post Share on other sites
Azubi Posted August 4, 2009 Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 Indeed, who are 'we' when you refer to 'our goals...' ? Link to post Share on other sites
Connery Posted August 4, 2009 Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 So are the tin hats optional or required when reading this gigantic wall of text? Link to post Share on other sites
Marlowe Posted August 4, 2009 Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 No, just an understanding that apparrently Bioval's marketing department seem to confuse promotion of their own products with libellous acts against their competitors'. Airsoft Informer / Trecam: you have ten minutes to respond, stating your commercial affiliations. If you fail to do so by that point I'm afraid I'll be banning both accounts as I'm not prepared to have this forum used as a means for you to insult your competitors. Link to post Share on other sites
Airsoft Informer Posted August 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 Must all detractors work for somebody? I have stated nothing that is liable. I have simply collected public/published information and placed it all in one place. What exactly is wrong with that? Link to post Share on other sites
Azubi Posted August 4, 2009 Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 Must all detractors work for somebody? All detractors must have an agenda. Be it pushing another product, genuine concern for the environment or simply malicious intent. Where does all your efforts lie? Link to post Share on other sites
Marlowe Posted August 4, 2009 Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 That was not a denial, I note. Firstly, you have joined this forum solely to promote your blog. This in itself is a commercial act and would usually has the post pulled immediately. On this occasion I have not done so as you are bound to just post some more of this sort of content the moment I do so. Secondly, I find it interesting that Trecam has, along with you, also just happened to pop up a link to a hitherto unknown blog with one entry in it, deriding products competing with Bioval. Thirdly - and this is the biggy - I would ask what other motivation you would have. Call me a cynic, but it seems odd that you decide to use a new account to announce a new blog with a single post seeking to undermine sales of Bioval's main competitors in the biodegradable field. If an official bioval representative wishes to use this forum as a commercial user, tell them to set up an account, contact me and I will give it commercial status so that they can promote their products in an ethical and legally agreeable manner. Until that point stop insulting the collective intelligence of the forum by purporting to be doing this out of the greater good. Link to post Share on other sites
Mike_West Posted August 4, 2009 Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 Yes, especially when they have some interest in attacking specific companies only. "Just the facts, ma'am" doesn't cut it, especially when info about other producers is curiously missing, indicating that some manipulation has taken place. Link to post Share on other sites
Wraith18A Posted August 4, 2009 Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 Not to mention that Libel is ridiculously easy to prove in the UK... and the promulgator of it (in this case, Arnies) can be cited for it, which results in one of the last real mega-airsoft forums (the only others being Airsoft Players--long dead--and ASR--ie, carp) being KO'ed. Link to post Share on other sites
The General Posted August 4, 2009 Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 Busted! Sharp as ever guys! Keep up the good work! Link to post Share on other sites
Marlowe Posted August 4, 2009 Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 As neither have responded to reject or accept commercial affiliation, both have now been banned. I'm not prepared to allow the forums to be used as a patsy for companies to deride their competitors via. Should Bioval wish to participate on the forums, they're welcome to do so - but only if they follow the rules of the forum and focus on promoting the virtues of their own products, not deriding the products of their competitors. I'll lock this down now. Thanks for the support. Link to post Share on other sites
fireman Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 In case anyones interested here is a reply by the company that is the manufacturer of the bio technology used in the madbull bb's in response to the blog.... The thing I like about this response is that it states standards that their product complies with or testing standards it has passed. I am not affliated with anyone, just passing on information. Now as for my experience with bio bb's is that they take along time to degrade but far less than the 1000's of years for non degradable plastics. They more often than not get trampled into the ground, picked up by animals, etc. before they degrade. To all Airsoft players and customers, About a week ago, a few Airsoft players show us an article: “The Madbull and G&G Bio BB Scam.” We don’t know who wrote this article but this article says MadBull BB are not Biodegradable and is a Scam. To find out the truth, I fly back to Taiwan and meet the sales reprehensive on Aug. 3rd. We contact the Japan material supplier immediately and we have the following response email from Japan headquarter. As a BB manufacture, we have to choose the most reliable source of materials to make our BB. We choose Japan P-life to make our Bio BB. If you have any further concern, please email to service@madbullairsoft.com We will try our best to provide you information needed. All test report are available per request. he followings are Japan’s response: First of all, we (“P-Life Japan Inc”) are the principal company of P-Life Oxo-Biodegradable Plastic Technology and are manufacturing “P-Life” degradable additive and supply throughout the world. On behalf of P-Life Japan Inc, we would like to say thank you for your promotion of P-Life BBs in US and European Market with your tremendous efforts and enthusiasms. According to Mr. Su Liang Gee (my partner) in Taiwan, he had a meeting with you regarding the article “The Madbull and G&G Bio BB Scam” published on the website of Pub Talk Press dated on August 3rd, 2009. It mentioned about the comparison of P-Life and PLA as the biodegradable materials utilized for BBs with very negative comments. As a principal of P-Life Oxo-Biodegradable Plastic Technology, I would like to provide the comments regarding the argument mentioned below. Please refer to the comments in red. 1. Madbull also claims there are no heavy metals in the bbs and has actually produced a TüV certificate. This is either false or Madbull's factory has failed somewhere. The test data conducted by TüV is authentic. If they claim that it is not true, they should prove it by showing any technical data through the authorized testing body. Their comment is just an imaginary guess with no ground study. We condemn their comment which really insults the reputation of TüV as an internationally recognized testing body. 2. The Europeans have decided to officially condemn P-Life and all the so-called OXO Degrading compounds. These substances do not degrade and are toxic. “The Europeans have decided to officially condemn P-Life and all the so-called Oxo…” We do not know what they are talking about. As far as we know, our product has never been condemned by any Europeans at all. It is quite regrettable to hear this kind of groundless comment. We have so far conducted various testing with regard to not only the degradability of the plastic products with P-Life but also the safety of our P-Life additive itself. So far, we confirmed the followings; - P-Life products are complied with ASTM D3826, D5510, G154 certified by Hong Kong Productivity Council. - The capability of P-Life products to comply with ASTM D6954 (Tier 2, biodegradation) Test has been demonstrated by the loss of molecular weight achieved after thermal/UV degradation, resulting in ultimate biodegradation of the material into CO2, Water and biomass (RAPRA 49063 Report in 2008 and CERI Report in 2005) - The biodegradability of P-Life products has been demonstrated by the mineralization testing based on ISO14855 (JIS K6953) conducted by CERI JAPAN in 2005. - The thorough ASTM D6954 test has been conducted by SP Technical Research Institute of Sweden (“SP”) and SP indicates that the trend of biodegradability for P-Life products is still increasing after 240days under both Soil and Compost Environment. - “P-Life Additive” comply with the regulations of heavy metals under EU (EC Directive, Rohs), and US CONEG regulations. 3. Cobalt (see definition below) was identified in the mix. This heavy metal is not regulated in the EU, USA and Japan (but it is in Canada). This is the little trick (or loop hole) in P-Life. P-Life Additive never contains any amount of Cobalt or its compounds at all. The heavy metals considered to be highly toxic and strictly limited to use are as follows; “Hg (Mercury), Pb (Lead), Cd (Cadmium) ,Cr (Chromium)” As mentioned “P-Life Additive” comply with the regulations of heavy metals under EU (EC Directive, Rohs), and US CONEG regulations. Please find the attached test reports for your reference 4. The UK Environmental Agency condemned OXO in the Scottish parliament in 2005. This decision constitutes a legal precedent in the EU and has influenced the Italian Antitrust Commission to heavily fine a chain store for using the statement "100% biodegradable" with an OXO supplemented product. The above mentioned is not about P-Life and its relating products (finished products) at all. This is about our competitor’s product. The producer of the products should not say “100%” unless they can prove it officially. Sometimes, you might see this kind of exaggerated wording used for the degradable items in order to attract the consumers’ minds. So, we rather advise you that you should use “Oxo-biodegradable” rather than just “biodegradable” since the Oxo-Biodegradable Plastics are materials that undergo a two-step degradation, initially by an oxidative process that is promoted by the inclusion of catalytic additives such as P-Life and subsequently by biodegradation. On the other hand, the polymers such as PLA (Polylactic Acids), Starch base polymers are considered to be “Hydro-biodegradable” plastics, which are initiated by hydrolysis degradation and subsequently are biodegraded. The attached are the test reports for evaluation of “Oxo-biodegradability of P-Life dosed plastic materials” conducted by the testing bodies such as CERI Japan and SP Technical Research Institute of Sweden, who are our research partner in Europe, are in the process of evaluating P-Life dosed Plastics according to ASTM D6954 guideline. 5. PLA will only biodegrade in the conditions set for an Industrial Compost facility and virtually no G&G made PLA bbs go to that kind of facility since no game fields we know of actually spend the time and financial resources to pick up bbs that have been fired into the environment and send them to an Industrial Compost facility. The above mentioned is true that PLA merely degrades in the very limited condition which is under the controlled composting environment (high moisture with an elevated temperature like 60C). Therefore, it is not realistic that BBs made with PLA will be collected and sent them to the compost facility after shooting them. On the other hand, the Oxo-Biodegradable plastic products are degrading under the natural environment as long as they can undergo the oxidative reaction enhanced by P-Life additive. Thus, this is one of the advantages to use P-Life BBs rather than using PLA base BBs since the products are shot in the outdoor environments such as hills, mountains etc where we can expect the oxidative degradation by using plenty of oxygen, heat and sun-shines. We hope that you will find the comments above helpful for you to further develop the degradable BBs markets in both US and Europe. Through your aggressive marketing in US and Europe, if you have any issues, obstacles we have to tackle with, please let us know anytime. We are truly looking forward to building up a fruitful business relationship with you in very close future. Thank you & Best Regards, ****************************************************** P-Life Japan Inc. ISAO TOYAMA Link to post Share on other sites
uscmCorps Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 It is pretty pertinent though as this entire topic got started because of the initial BioBB scare. From what the above info implies, Madbull and G&G Bio-BBs are more realistically Biodegradable within real world conditions (i.e. doesn't require a compost facility and degrades in nature) than many of their competitors. Does anyone know what Bioval's are made from? Is it PLA? Link to post Share on other sites
fireman Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Their website only states that the Washington State Department of Natural Resources approved them for use on Washington State DNR managed lands. Which states absolutely nothing on their composition, ingredients. And this is on the ingredients page of their website. But I did find the following from their website (although it took some searching)..... PLA (Polylactic acid or polylactide) is derived from corn starch or sugarcane. And the starch listed as used is Number 2 Yellow Dent, which is a type of corn. So yes I would say from the ingredient list and the information found on the web it is made of PLA. INGREDIENTS Bio BB distributed (under various trade marks) by Bioval Technologies is made from the following bio-degradable and eco friendly material: Component Weight Percentage Starch 66.12% Protein 8.84% Oil/Fat 4.24% Crude Fiber 2.67% Ash 1.29% Sugars 1.84% Moisture 15% The source of starch/dextrose used is known as "Number 2 Yellow Dent", considered safe as a raw material for human food products. Biodegradation of the Bio BB takes place through the transformation and deterioration by living organisms (including the microorganisms and/or the enzymes excreted by them) and yield carbon dioxide (CO2), water, inorganic compounds and biomass leaving no visible, distinguishable or toxic residue. The information contained above was provided by the manufacturer of the Bio BB and is accurate only to the extent of what the manufacturer has declared to Bioval Technologies. Bioval Technologies cannot be held responsible in any way for inaccuracies in the ingredients and/or cannot be held responsible for any damage, loss and/or any type of liability whatsoever as a result of the use or misuse of the Bio BB. This information is subject to change, please contact Bioval Technologies for updates. July 1, 2007 Link to post Share on other sites
Marlowe Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Re-opened for discussion, now that we can have a balanced perspective, rather than one company's libel. Link to post Share on other sites
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