Idiot proof SA80

[blind_marksman]

I've looked around, and I can't find a topic like this, so I think I'm ok to post this.

 

At some point in the near future , I will be required to replace my L85 with a new weapon. I'd like to try and replace it with another SA80 type, but I'm having a few problems finding the 'right one'. I'd like to get a reliable and easy to work ('idiot proof')SA80. Something that works most of the time, and doesn't need me to replace/modify parts as soon as I get it out of the box (so, from current experiance, AA and G&G are out of the question)

 

I know that ARES are advertised as 1:1 scale replicas, using the same materials as the real steels - I don't really care about that. What I'm after is an easy to use and run skirmisher. I'm not fussed by blowback (especially since its one of the reasons my current L85 has needed repairs so much).

 

I'm open to suggestions - I like all of the SA80 systems. I like the AFV/L22 and LSW L86 quite a bit though. What I'd like to know is, out of STAR/ARES and ICS, who makes the most reliable SA80s?

 

Thanks.

[Stealthbomber]

The Ares one is pretty reliable but it's also a bit of a mish-mash of bits due to the way it's made.

The ICS gun is a far more elegant design.

 

ICS L85 is top of the tree IMO.

[RSM]

I'd give another vote for the ICS, only two things need doing to it out of the box:

 

1) Lop off the large tamiya connector and put a deans connector on, much more manageable in the foregrip space wise.

2) The pin that holds the dust cover on, put a dab of loctite/araldite on it to stop it sliding back and forth, had it been about 0.01mm wider in diameter this wouldn't be a problem.

 

Other than that, you don't really need to do anything with it bar feed it power and BBs.

[Cyclone TAW]

ICS L85 does require very little extra attention.

 

I did have to put a bit of effort into the hop-unit however. The spring that pushes the hop arm down was quite weak in mine, so I had to tighten it a bit more by putting a small nut below it. Nothing too major though. I also had to do some filing on the hop arm to properly fit an element H-nub.

 

If you do have your heart set on an SA80, the ICS one requires the least work of the pack, and has some nice features...

[hwagan]

Having handled a R/S L85A1 Cadet rifle (single shot SA80), and a friend's ICS, i was frankly stunned at how close of a replica the ICS was. Really felt very very close to the real thing, as well as being lethally accurate. I vote ICS.

[RSM]

ICS L85 does require very little extra attention.

 

I did have to put a bit of effort into the hop-unit however. The spring that pushes the hop arm down was quite weak in mine, so I had to tighten it a bit more by putting a small nut below it. Nothing too major though. I also had to do some filing on the hop arm to properly fit an element H-nub.

 

If you do have your heart set on an SA80, the ICS one requires the least work of the pack, and has some nice features...

 

 

I did the same but with a bit of a lollypop stick under the spring, probably not 100% necessary stock but if you go reprofiling the arm it ensures you get that extra bit of push put on the nub.

 

Only time the ICS gets awkward is when you want to install something like a Trigger Master FET but it's nothing more than just taking the trigger mech apart and tinning the press fit components.

[Panoptes]

...stunned at how close of a replica the ICS was. Really felt very very close to the real thing...

The ARES is much more accurate (I've used the real thing, own the ARES and have seen the ICS up close).

 

But you wanted a gun for idiots so the ICS is first choice.

 

Sorry - 'idiot-proof'.

 

j/k

[RSM]

Panoptes, I know you're a realism/authentism buff and I can respect that but you're getting ever so slightly grating. What the ICS lacks in aethestic realism it makes up in either ease of dissasembly or performance. Moreso, the ICS has been on the market for a shorter amount of time and has had significantly less reported problems compared to the STAR/ARES.

 

Don't worry though, I am a teensy bit miffed my ICS can't take the DD RIS unlike the ARES. Not miffed enough to want an ARES over my ICS but miffed all the same

[Cyclone TAW]

Don't worry too much, I saw that poster from madbul a while ago about their new licensed DD rails. It said they'd release a DD rail which would be compatible with G&G and ICS L85s. That did strike me as being a bit odd, seeing how that would mean two seperatly designed rails, but it gave me a sparkle of hope...

 

So I was in happyland nonetheless...

[RWJP]

Another vote here for the ICS...

 

Yes the Ares version may be closer to the real steel externally, and yes it can fit real external parts (the RIS Rail), but they're not great internally (or at least the older ones aren't, supposedly the new ones have a metal gearbox, the older ones had a horrendous plastic gearbox...). A friend owns one, and it's stripped two pistons, shredded two gearsets, and that's all on a 8.4v mini with the gun shooting at 350FPS!

 

The ICS is (in my not so humble opinion) way better built, and way less likely to reward a trigger pull with the gut-wrenching "scrreeeech" sound of your piston being ripped apart...

[Panoptes]

Come on mate...

j/k

 

I have noticed though that the ICS dramas are starting to come through - so they're not flawless as some make them out to be.

[blind_marksman]

Ok, so more people have said ICS - but the true L85 fan says otherwise...

_{I've met Panoptes on another forum}

 

Which of them is them is better for ease of maintenance? (Do I need a PhD in electro-mechanical engineering to look after it? ) And which is easier to find replacment/spare parts for? (My current l85 needed several parts to be made specially for it on a friend's lathe, something I'd like to avoid going through again. Especially after the costs )

 

I'm not overly bothered by the new DD rail. To be honest, I don't like them, and I had glue'd and screw'd a strip of rail onto my handguard (but I can see why they are needed. And Pan's L85 with rail did look pretty niiice...)

 

Does anyone have experiance with the L86? I know that its slightly heavier and longer, but I haven't found many people (on teh webz) with either STAR/ARES or the ICS model.

Again, the same goes for the AFV/L22 (but the inverse of about length & weight). _{I do know that for the price of an L22 (no battery) I could get an ICS L86 with battery.}

 

Cheers again.

_{I'm asking all this because I'd like to avoid doing what I did - jumping in feet first and getting my L85 without looking into all the faults these particular models had, and end up spending £95 on repairs and spares...}

[Cyclone TAW]

Which of them is them is better for ease of maintenance? (Do I need a PhD in electro-mechanical engineering to look after it? ) And which is easier to find replacment/spare parts for? (My current l85 needed several parts to be made specially for it on a friend's lathe, something I'd like to avoid going through again. Especially after the costs

[Bane]

After a new dealer opened locally with some ICS toys for sale i've been working on quite a few, tuned two L86LSW's up as DMR rifles and tweaked a few more l85's

 

The ICS L85 design is UNEQUIVOCALLY better.. the contacts are actually a modification of what is used in industrial relays for switching uber-currents, and sturdy as hell. The mechbox is rock solid and can easily push 500-600 fps without a problem with the stock motor no less.

 

Top ARES, middle ICS, bottom G&G

 

 

ICS Mech Breakdown

 

 

Trigger setup (Sooo nice)

 

 

Comparison, G&G L85 mech breakdown

 

ARES L85 mech breakdown

 

 

 

[Cyclone TAW]

Forum died while I was attempting to reply yesterday and I cannot edit it now anymore...

 

The gearbox is indeed supereasy to work on, because it doesn't have any springs or wires in it when you open it up/close it again. That makes it supereasy to work on. I did forget to mention previously that I did fiddle a bit with the pistons angle of engagement (Bane's third picture reminded me of that). I'm not sure it was 100%, but I did it anyway out of precaution.

 

About the L86, I remember reading somewhere that it performed worse then the L85 because the outer barrel was less stable on the L86 version. I don't have an L86, so I cannot verify it, I'm just mentioning it...

[RSM]

Come on mate...

 

 

I have noticed though that the ICS dramas are starting to come through - so they're not flawless as some make them out to be.

 

 

Yeah I get you were joking and all, I was perhaps over reacting. To be objective about it the state of play with L85s now is similar to the M14 situation, TM, like STAR, were the first to put AEG internals inside a firearm's silhoette. At the time it wasn't really debateable whether the methods employed were the best because competition was either non existant (V1 G&G M14 vs TM M14) or sorely lacking performance wise (Academy L85).

 

Now that other high end manufacturer's have had time to look at how STAR has done the L85 and seen what griped players and act on that feedback.

 

So, I guess if you want the 'original' high end L85 that can work as a wall hanger or mod platform for real parts then go for the STAR, if you just want to whack a large battery in it (that you might already have lying around from another gun or you don't want to go lipo...) and go play with a little less regard for aesthetics then go for the ICS.

 

Either choice I think would be less fuss than a G&G in the long run...

[Stealthbomber]

ARES L85 mech breakdown...

To be fair, your comparison of those 3 guns doesn't tell the whole story.

 

In order to actually remove the gearbox from the Star/Ares gun you'd have to remove a bunch more tiny self-tapping screws, bars, levers and grub screws before you can yank the barrel out with it.

 

The ICS and (more-so IMO) the G&G guns both strip down in a reasonably practical manner whereas taking a Star L85 to bits is all a bit messy and halfassed.

 

When it comes to shoving a battery in and going out to shoot BBs, the Star gun is as good as any other but as soon as you start to consider the practicalities of service and maintenance on the gun it begins to look very poor indeed IMO.

 

When it comes to servicing the G&G gun it actually seems like a practical design.

You split the receiver (by removing the receiver pin) which leaves the gearbox in the lower and the barrel in the upper.

You slide the barrel out and clean it.

If you want to swap springs the upper gearbox can be removed easily.

If you want to remove the gearbox you remove one more pin and out it comes.

All rather elegant.

 

You can't even clean the barrel of the Star gun properly without taking the entire gun to bits because the hop-up is fitted inside the gearbox.

Removing the receiver pin allows you to remove the upper receiver which achieves nothing Everything is still in the bottom half.

Further maintenance requires you to begin removing a horde of tiny self-tapping screws and tiny grub-screws in order to remove the various levers etc.

It's a real bodge of a design IMO.

 

I can't really comment on the ICS gun as I've never owned one but it seems pretty practical too.

 

Even if the Star gun is more authentic, once you factor in ease of maintenance and reliability the only clear winner is the ICS gun IMO.

 

Course, I'm the sort of person who thinks the ICS M4 is far and away the best AR15 around because of how easy it is to work on whereas some people think it's a deformed mutant and they wouldn't buy one if it was the only version available.

Some peopple have different priorities I guess.

[RSM]

When it comes to shoving a battery in and going out to shoot BBs, the Star gun is as good as any other but as soon as you start to consider the practicalities of service and maintenance on the gun it begins to look very poor indeed IMO.

 

 

Just to clarify, the ICS takes standard form Sub C packs up to 9.6v or up to 12v with 4/5Sub C that will just slot into the foregrip which on the ICS design comes off in a tool free manner rather than having to unscrew the sling loop through the gas block. As far as I am aware the STAR/G&G require custom packs you need to 'fiddle' into place. So if you use any solid stock gun and you're looking for something that can take the batteries you already have then the ICS scores a little higher in the 'shove and go' criteria.

[BIGBC]

Love my ICS L86. Almost bought the Ares but after reading into the differences it was obvious which to go for. External wise there is very little difference, and the two Ares L85/L86 owners Ive come across have said they prefer my ICS.

 

 

As for working on it its a breeze. Stripped down, changed the barrel and reassembled in 10mins.

[L85FREAK]

I own the Ares L86, and it is a fantastic gun. I got the metal gearbox version, so maybe a difference there.

Two things that I am reluctant to say about this gun is the quality of the hop rubber and the motor.

The hop rubber should be replaced...period. While your at it put a tightbore in there!

My motor burnt out, not sure what happened there.

Other than that I love it.

I can hit a 18 inch(~46cm) target at a range of 300 feet with little problem, I think it hits every time, from about a meter off the ground. This is with a stock gearbox, except the motor, and a 6.04mm inner barrel. I chronoed it once before and it was running ~290 fps with .25 bbs.

I have had no experience with the ICS or G&G versions. But I would probably not buy one, my Ares is just that good.

As for replacement parts, Ares has put out the complete gearbox set for nearly all of their guns, which is good for me.

Disassembly is a bit of a task but not hard, just time-consuming.

As for the custom packs, I do not really see the need for them but if you want to you can try it, I use a 8.4V which is good enough for a stock gun.

I have had the gun for over a year, no problems other than the motor.

I would definitely recommend it.

[Panoptes]

External wise there is very little difference...

There's where we differ in opinion. I saw the ICS a few weeks back at the Airsoft Arms Fair and I simply couldn't believe how poor it was in comparison to the ARES.

 

Each to their own, granted (and I won't argue with the fact that the ICS is 'easier' to open up) but I thought Airsoft's core 'value' was realism?...

[Stealthbomber]

....but I thought Airsoft's core 'value' was realism?...

I just looked at the thread title and took it from there.

[Abelius]

My Ares was a wonderful shooter after it got opened up, reshimmed, relubed and rewired. It was screechy and unresponsive until that and that's what most people overlook about them. When you hear all these people saying these and those things about their gun, always take it with a grain of salt. Most simply don't care about badle assembled internals for instance, as long as the gun shoots long and hard.

 

Externally it was great, the upper and lower body had some play on them though. The outer barrel fixation system must be the most retarded build of a thousand screws too.

 

Would I recommend it? No way. The takedown is downright abysmal and that killed it for me in the end.

[L85FREAK]

My Ares was a wonderful shooter after it got opened up, reshimmed, relubed and rewired. It was screechy and unresponsive until that and that's what most people overlook about them. When you hear all these people saying these and those things about their gun, always take it with a grain of salt. Most simply don't care about badle assembled internals for instance, as long as the gun shoots long and hard.

 

Externally it was great, the upper and lower body had some play on them though. The outer barrel fixation system must be the most retarded build of a thousand screws too.

 

Would I recommend it? No way. The takedown is downright abysmal and that killed it for me in the end.

a. I did not have this problem, maybe that says something about quality control? Or how they have changed?

b. In a post like this, the original poster is asking for the opinion of people

c. If a low fps gun is shooting that far something must be going right

d. The takedown is not nearly as bad as you people make it seem, this is something you should take with a grain of salt

[3vi1-D4n]

Not to rehash things which have already been said RE: L85s, as observed, ICS disassembly and reliability is definately better than the ARES. For the sake of not picking a fight with Stealthbomber I will not comment on the G&G.

 

However I would like to point out an observation between the L86s, namely the ICS L86 vs ARES L86. Both suffer from the same problem of having a wobbly outer barrel, and when bipoded the point of aim shifts upwards significantly, not to mention that unbipoded the accuracy is much much worse than AEGs with similar barrel lengths (ARES SLR, Marui PSG1, Steyr HBAR etc).

 

The ARES L86 barrel is a 2 piece affair and is supported not by the barrel but by the polymer foregrip, while the ICS is a one piece design. However both barrels are soft aluminium (as opposed to the harder aluminium barrels used by KA, CA and G&P guns), and cannot support the weight/torque of the gun with the bipod on. This means that both L86s are unsuitable for DMR work, unless a steel barrel exists or the bipod is removed.