Addition of grease to gas pistols?

[intinerious]

Hey guys,

 

I've recently upgraded my Marui MEU with the following parts:

 

'Gas' related:

Shooters Design POM nozzle

Nine Ball dyna piston

Nine ball 6.03mm tightbore barrel (112.5mm)

Nine ball Air Seal Bucking (purple hop rubber)

 

'Non-gas' related:

Airsoft Surgeon disconnector set

Airsoft Surgeon sear spring

Guarder MEU 150% recoil and hammer spring

 

'External' related:

Nova silver three hold trigger (for trigger adjustability which the stock does not have)

Nine ball SAS barrel (threaded +14mm)

 

I've added grease to the moving parts of the gun (gas-related parts) to smooth out the mechanism of the parts as conventional airsoft thinking goes. I've aso tried silicon oil before on the moving parts of the pistol.

 

From what I experienced, addition of silicon oil seems to do nothing for the parts, but it makes a mess of itself on the pistol when it starts seeping everywhere....down the slide, etc.

The only thing I've noticed is that the slide movement sound seems to dampen when silicon oil is added. The 1911/hi capa/MEU thread also have a consensus that silicon oil does nothing for metal on metal parts and this probably translate to having no effect on GBB pistols.

 

I've tried adding grease to the gun. The grease was a Tokyo Marui gear grease. It was all I had at the time and I though 'eh, why not?' Adding the grease to my MEU set up seems to lead to some inconsistencies in shooting when the SD POM nozzle was installed. Sometimes the blowback felt weaker than its previous shot, but nonetheless the pistol still shot fine (I don't have a chrono so I don't know whether there was FPS inconsistencies). When the stock nozzle was replaced back into the pistol, every shot felt consistent.

 

Now, I've just recently disassembled the whole MEU to its' individual parts. I've washed every single part of the MEU with hot soapy water to get rid of the grease and afterwards I reassembled the MEU to its upgraded form (parts listed above). Stuck 18 bbs into my mag and loaded it with green gas; the pistol shot wonderfully. Every shot had the same felt recoil even when the mag started to cool down after the 16th shot (I estimate that I pulled the Mtrigger on my MEU at 2.5 shots per second).

 

From what I experienced, it seems that my pistol works much better when its completely dry and without grease or any oil added to it. I believe it's because the viscocity of the grease or oil added into my pistol creates additional friction for the gun to work against, and therefore it actually decreases its' efficiency.

 

Back to the use of the stock nozzle and SD POM nozzle, I am guessing that using the stock nozzle w/ grease lead to more consistent shots than with the SD nozzle becuase the inner diameter of the stock nozzle is wider than the SD nozzle. Any grease between the nozzle and the piston head had enough room for the grease to shear easily between themselves and therefore the grease's effect on the BBU assembly is not as pronouced than with the SD nozzle. It should be noted that the SD nozzle with the NB dyna piston head already seem to be a perfect fit with the o-ring JUST touching the insides of the SD nozzle. Hence adding any grease or oil for a better air seal will have minimal effect; but the energy required to shear the grease between the nozzle and the piston o-ring would decrease the efficiency of the pistol when its in operation.

 

So it seems to me that adding any sort of 'wet' lubricant (some people have addded dry lube such as graphite powder..haven't tried it myself so I can't say anything about it) actually decreases the efficiency of the GBB pistol rather than enchance the movement of the pistol itself.

 

Do you guys have any different opinion to my conclusion above? I'll really like to know whether my above findings are gun specific and that everyone will have different results or if there are any different types of lube out there that you guys have used in your GBBs and actually improved the efficiency of the gun?

[renegadecow]

I've fixed a whole bunch of guns whose only problem is being under lubed. Mainly the piston lid/cup is bone dry so it doesn't provide much of a seal against the nozzle cylinder causing the big poofs of green gas through the ejection port. A drop of silicon oil (I use tamiya shock oil medium set of viscosity 500~700) on the piston lid and everything goes back to normal. Agreed that the slide to frame engagement, if dry or oiled will hardly be felt by the shooter (unless gunked by dirt), but a thin film will still go a long ways in decreasing wear and tear. One important part I do make sure is well lubed is the firing components. A dry sear from a well lubed one can spell a difference of 5lbs on the trigger. Now, regarding upgrade parts, it's known that crossing different brands may result unfavorably because of different tolerances. For example an airsoft surgeon nozzle will fit loosely against a stock hop rubber which results in slight loss in fps. In some cases, a nozzle may be tight in the chamber so a little oil between the two may be perceived as an increase in performance.

In general, I put a light film of oil between the slide and frame fit, light oil between the nozzle and piston lid, and heavy oil or grease on the firing component surfaces. You also might want to mention the gas you're using as some brands have more oil than others which may result in seemingly good performance on a dry gun.

[intinerious]

I've fixed a whole bunch of guns whose only problem is being under lubed. Mainly the piston lid/cup is bone dry so it doesn't provide much of a seal against the nozzle cylinder causing the big poofs of green gas through the ejection port. A drop of silicon oil (I use tamiya shock oil medium set of viscosity 500~700) on the piston lid and everything goes back to normal. Agreed that the slide to frame engagement, if dry or oiled will hardly be felt by the shooter (unless gunked by dirt), but a thin film will still go a long ways in decreasing wear and tear. One important part I do make sure is well lubed is the firing components. A dry sear from a well lubed one can spell a difference of 5lbs on the trigger. Now, regarding upgrade parts, it's known that crossing different brands may result unfavorably because of different tolerances. For example an airsoft surgeon nozzle will fit loosely against a stock hop rubber which results in slight loss in fps. In some cases, a nozzle may be tight in the chamber so a little oil between the two may be perceived as an increase in performance.

In general, I put a light film of oil between the slide and frame fit, light oil between the nozzle and piston lid, and heavy oil or grease on the firing component surfaces. You also might want to mention the gas you're using as some brands have more oil than others which may result in seemingly good performance on a dry gun.

 

Thanks for the reply

 

In the guns you fixed, are they using the stock piston lid/cup that isn't an o-ring? I would assume as long as the aftermarket o-ring piston head isn't too dry and cracking; the air seal would still be okay. Personally I've never experienced any pistols that have green gas spewing through the ejection port. But then again I haven't handled a lot of pistols (only a KSC G18c, USP; TM Hicapa, MEU and p226) and HK's hot weather tends to prevent the green gas from liquidifying.

 

for the slide and frame interaction, would it be better to polish the rails with sandpaper just enough so that the rails are shiny (so that not TOO much material be removed to have slide wiggling) or use dry lube, such as fine graphite powder with a thin grease adhesive? I've been reading the ASC boards and apparently some people are using that combo to lube the slides. The added benefit with the graphite + grease (white lithium grease) is apparently the graphite powder filling any microvoids along the rails to create a perfectly smooth surface for the slide to interact with the frame.

 

Thanks for the info about lubing the sears. But for 1911/hi capas/MEU, I can probably not lube any of the firing mech right? Since the firing mech is adjustable and stuff via moding the prongs on the sear spring.

 

After reading most of the posts in the 1911/hi capa FAQ on ASC, it seems that the dyna piston head and the SD nozzles create the best air seal in comparison with other aftermarket parts. I agree with the ASC consensus as I can't see ANY gaps between my SD nozzle and the o-ring from my dyna piston head. Plus the SD nozzle is apparently 'indestructable' (from the general stresses imparted onto the nozzle in airsoft), so air seal isn't a problem for me at all and no lube seems to work better than lubing.

 

I also use the Nine Ball purple bucking, which apaprently gives the best air seal and highest FPS increase over all the other VSR/1911 buckings available and ever since I installed it; I can tell that the muzzle report is much louder than a stock MEU due to the tight airseal. The SD nozzle/NB dyna piston/NB bucking seems to give the best air seal for hi capas/p226/1911/MEUs out there in the market right now and lubing any of those components would probably do nothing unless it's to cure drying o-rings or bucking. Also, any lube inside the hop-up chamber, barrel, etc. where the bbs will touch are unfavorable for consistencies in bb flight path isn't it? So I'm guessing that having a completely clean barrel/hop up assembly (no grease ANYWHERE near the assembly) would give the best consistencies in bb flight path (assuming no issues with the types of bbs used, the parts having no malfunctions, etc.)..and I seem to have went a little off topic here, my bad.

 

The green gas I'm using is this (click here). I don't think is has a lot of oil? I'm not that familiar with the types of gases other than CO2, the green gas bottle in the link, and the marui HFC134a.

[renegadecow]

The ones I've tinkered with are mostly stock, some with o-rings for the lid, some with cups. Can't remember all of them but the last ones I did were a WE Hi-Capa, KSC G19, KSC USPC (old type), KSC G18C, CA 1911.

 

While you could adjust the trigger characteristics of some 1911's it still helps to lube the sears other than for a lighter pull. Also helps in smoothness of the action as well as reduce wear from friction. You might not notice it much on light single action autos, but you'll really see the difference on DA revolvers and NBBs.

[ED-SKaR]

I'd never advocate not lubing a gun. You will wear out the parts in no time flat!

 

Thinner oils are best, as they don't gum up the mech, but the thinner the oil, the sooner it wears out. I oil my gun before every single game, so its always fresh oil, and i use fairly thin stuff. But i use much thicker grease on the o-ring in the BBU and on the slide rails, as i find those parts are bashed around more than others they can take the thicker grease.

[intinerious]

The ones I've tinkered with are mostly stock, some with o-rings for the lid, some with cups. Can't remember all of them but the last ones I did were a WE Hi-Capa, KSC G19, KSC USPC (old type), KSC G18C, CA 1911.

 

While you could adjust the trigger characteristics of some 1911's it still helps to lube the sears other than for a lighter pull. Also helps in smoothness of the action as well as reduce wear from friction. You might not notice it much on light single action autos, but you'll really see the difference on DA revolvers and NBBs.

 

 

Thanks for the reply. I'll try to get some lighter oils to smooth out the trigger pull. As for wear and tear, I've switched my sears and sear spring voer to the Airsoft Surgeon parts. The sear disconnectors seem like they can take a heavy beating (the stock ones started to wear down from the AS sear spring) and the sear spring doesnt seem to show any sign of damage either.

 

I'll keep in mind about lubing the trigger mechs from any DA/NBB guns I'll own in the future. Perhaps I was too focused on the trigger mechs of 1911 and didn't consider the other types of pistols out there.

 

 

I'd never advocate not lubing a gun. You will wear out the parts in no time flat!

 

Thinner oils are best, as they don't gum up the mech, but the thinner the oil, the sooner it wears out. I oil my gun before every single game, so its always fresh oil, and i use fairly thin stuff. But i use much thicker grease on the o-ring in the BBU and on the slide rails, as i find those parts are bashed around more than others they can take the thicker grease.

 

Even for a stock TM gun? I'm still keeping my MEU plastic until I have enough money to get a NOVA kit

 

I thought not oiling the gun will generally wear out the 'rubber' compenents of the gun. So stuff like the hop up rubber, piston head skirt/o-ring, rubber air seal route in the mag, etc. will rip/crack if its too dry. If that is the case, then my maintainence habit would be to remove the o-ring and hop rubber once in a while to soak it in silicon oil overnight before washing the oil off the surface with warm water, and replacing it back into the gun. I'm probably too lazy to take out the pins from the mag lips, pull the rubber out and do the same for the mags, so I'll lightly spray some oil on the rubbers after every game.

 

The plastic/metal interaction between the slide and frame doesnt seem to wear out at all. Any wear and tear are probably because of me sliding in the slide after a field strip at a slight angle that causes the plastic slide and metal frame to rub against each other too much. But even that seems to have minimal waer on the plastic.

 

My point with the grease thing is that it probably causes more inconsistencies with FPS output, felt recoil, etc. because its another variable in the system. The effect would be more pronounced with thicker grease or oils and that is exactly what I've experienced. From a pure maintainence point of view however, I'll still advocate using oils to make sure the rubber parts of the gun are well kept so that they don't crack when the gun is used.

[ED-SKaR]

No, thats all manner of wrong. "even" a stock TM pistol needs some oil, especially on the slide and frame rails, especially on the cylinder and the BBU housing, as these are the two most "forcefull" movements in the gun.

 

When I clean the oils and grease off my guns, for example my plastic TM 1911, I find that what i take out of the slide and frame rails is a different colour to anywhere else, because the plastic and metal have worn away a tiny fraction, and that material is caught in the oil. On metal guns this is more pronounced. OIL IS NEEDED!

 

I also find that when I've not done such a good job of oiling the cylinder has scratches on the outside, very fine scratches that can be avoided with even a thin oil. (this takes more than a few games mind.)

 

 

I have found through trial and error and firing well over 100k rounds through various pistols that not lubing a gun causes inconsistancies. Even a thin coating of oil will prevent the friction that causes it and IMPROVES shot to shot consistancy in both FPS and blowback action.

 

 

 

I prefer plastic guns, especially when the gun is a TM. I've been running my TM 1911 for over 3 years and its been through at least 20k rounds by itself.

 

 

 

I will say this once more in big letters: oiling or greasing a gun is a job you have to do BEFORE a game, not after. By all means CLEAN a gun after a skirmish, but you need to oil it BEFORE. I normally do it the night before, if i can't do it on the day of the game itself.

oil should be wet on the gun when it is fired, most firing happens at a skirmish, ergo, oil BEFORE the game.

If you do a lot of plinking, you should check its still wet with oil before you start firing, a quick spray with a can inside the slide is enough, just make sure you hit the slide rails and a little in the BBU.

[intinerious]

No, thats all manner of wrong. "even" a stock TM pistol needs some oil, especially on the slide and frame rails, especially on the cylinder and the BBU housing, as these are the two most "forcefull" movements in the gun.

 

When I clean the oils and grease off my guns, for example my plastic TM 1911, I find that what i take out of the slide and frame rails is a different colour to anywhere else, because the plastic and metal have worn away a tiny fraction, and that material is caught in the oil. On metal guns this is more pronounced. OIL IS NEEDED!

 

I also find that when I've not done such a good job of oiling the cylinder has scratches on the outside, very fine scratches that can be avoided with even a thin oil. (this takes more than a few games mind.)

 

 

I have found through trial and error and firing well over 100k rounds through various pistols that not lubing a gun causes inconsistancies. Even a thin coating of oil will prevent the friction that causes it and IMPROVES shot to shot consistancy in both FPS and blowback action.

 

 

 

I prefer plastic guns, especially when the gun is a TM. I've been running my TM 1911 for over 3 years and its been through at least 20k rounds by itself.

 

 

 

I will say this once more in big letters: oiling or greasing a gun is a job you have to do BEFORE a game, not after. By all means CLEAN a gun after a skirmish, but you need to oil it BEFORE. I normally do it the night before, if i can't do it on the day of the game itself.

oil should be wet on the gun when it is fired, most firing happens at a skirmish, ergo, oil BEFORE the game.

If you do a lot of plinking, you should check its still wet with oil before you start firing, a quick spray with a can inside the slide is enough, just make sure you hit the slide rails and a little in the BBU.

 

I think you misinterpreted what I previously said about oiling the stuff after a game

 

I was still under the assumption that lubing doesn't do my gun any good in terms of the PERFORMANCE of the gun. Hence, I said no lube during the game.

 

But, I know that some parts of the gun will wear out over time if it's not regularly oiled (o-rings, bucking) so I said I'll soak those parts in oil after a game to preserve their 'properties' so that they don't rip or crack during use.

 

But that's a moot point since you're strongly advocating to oil a gun anyway before a game

 

Personally the only wear between the slide and frame that I can see got rubbed into the oil I applied between them were the paint from the rails themselves, making the otherwise clear oil black. I've never noticed any wear on the plastic slide (and I've been using purely green gas with a 150% recoil spring). I've also inspected my SD nozzle today and I didn't notice any scratches that are caused by the nozzle movement in the BBU. The only scratches were due to the little screw that holds the valve blocker scratching the top of the nozzle when I got finicky during my installation and poked the nozzle. But they were really small, shallow scratches and I highly doubt it'll affect the performance of my gun.

 

As to your experience with inconsistencies when your guns are not oiled, I had the opposite results (detailed in my first post). Then again, I don't have access to a chrono and I can't really tell whether there are FPS inconsistencies and all of my observations were purely from experience.

 

The trigger pull difference that I noticed was that the non-lubed trigger mech was stiffer to pull; it had a much more 'distinctive' distance of pull before the sears are tripped. lubing the trigger mech seem to give a bit more 'slack' to the pull (which means the pull was smoother). I somewhat like the stiff trigger pull though, so I'll stick with not lubing the trigger mech (no wear and tear that I can see since I'm using reinforced parts).

 

Nonetheless, can you recommend the type of oil you're using for your pistols? Renegadecow recommended tamiya shock oil medium set of viscosity 500~700, so I'll try to source some of that to try. I'll see if there is any consistency improvement when I use the thinner oils as opposed to no oil and decide on what I'll prefer after that.

[UrPeaceKeeper]

I will weigh in, but in the "Big Brother" of gas blowbacks. My G&P WOC performs like utter ###### without any lubrication of O-rings. And without grease on the buffer, it has a very rough cycle too. I run HPA through my WOC so I don't benefit from silicon in the gas, and usually at the end of a tank (2000-3000 shots) I'll tear it down and relube the main O-ring, and make sure the action is still cycling smooth. I use light weight silicon Shock Oil (10 weight) but I'm going to move to a slightly heavier (15 or 20 weight) shock oil. For the most part, so long as the blow back chamber is smooth and polished, and the O-ring is of quality, you only need a light spray of oil at best to keep O-rings from cracking. Quality O-rings shouldn't crack anyway.

[ED-SKaR]

I have experiance that any and every GBB i have ever used wears down the plastics and metal wherever they rub against each other. Generally the frame/slide rails are the worst, where after a single game the oil is visibly a different colour. The cylinder(nozzle) is next, more so on its outside where it rubs the metal of the BBU.

 

I have found that if you over oil the BBU with thin oil, the oil can be blown through the barrel as you fire. This affects the hopup. It is for this reason that i use grease rather than oil on the inside of the cylinder and on the piston head. I've also found that a little grease on the piston head improves gas efficiency.

 

The only place in the entire gun that i don't leave oil is inside the barrel. I put oil in because it helps clean it, but i make sure its dry before i go to the game. Same story with the hop rubber, spray on some oil then dry(Normally I leave the hop fitted to the barrel, I only remove it very occasionally.)

 

 

I'm using cheap nasty oils ATM, I'll be looking into some better stuff when it runs out.

[intinerious]

I will weigh in, but in the "Big Brother" of gas blowbacks. My G&P WOC performs like utter ###### without any lubrication of O-rings. And without grease on the buffer, it has a very rough cycle too. I run HPA through my WOC so I don't benefit from silicon in the gas, and usually at the end of a tank (2000-3000 shots) I'll tear it down and relube the main O-ring, and make sure the action is still cycling smooth. I use light weight silicon Shock Oil (10 weight) but I'm going to move to a slightly heavier (15 or 20 weight) shock oil. For the most part, so long as the blow back chamber is smooth and polished, and the O-ring is of quality, you only need a light spray of oil at best to keep O-rings from cracking. Quality O-rings shouldn't crack anyway.

 

 

I'm planning to get the VFC Mk18 Mod1 GBBR someday, and I would think that the tolerances of a GBBR are looser than a GBB pistol (just a guess). If that's the case then I can see why lubing is needed. Plus, the frictional force between moving parts in a GBBR should be bigger since you're using a stronger recoil spring for the bolt, your bolt is metal, and there may be bigger gaps between the parts inside the BCG itself? Again, just a guess since the only experience I had was with an AGM M4 GBBR which promptly broke down after 10 mags (mag catch not working, mag leaking, etc.)

 

The thing about the o-ring was exactly what I was getting at. I was proposing that you don't necessarily need oil INSIDE the BBU cylinder, as long as the o-ring is well kept and there is a tight air seal between the cylinder and piston head o-ring anyway the gun should work fine.

 

I have experiance that any and every GBB i have ever used wears down the plastics and metal wherever they rub against each other. Generally the frame/slide rails are the worst, where after a single game the oil is visibly a different colour. The cylinder(nozzle) is next, more so on its outside where it rubs the metal of the BBU.

 

I have found that if you over oil the BBU with thin oil, the oil can be blown through the barrel as you fire. This affects the hopup. It is for this reason that i use grease rather than oil on the inside of the cylinder and on the piston head. I've also found that a little grease on the piston head improves gas efficiency.

 

The only place in the entire gun that i don't leave oil is inside the barrel. I put oil in because it helps clean it, but i make sure its dry before i go to the game. Same story with the hop rubber, spray on some oil then dry(Normally I leave the hop fitted to the barrel, I only remove it very occasionally.)

 

 

I'm using cheap nasty oils ATM, I'll be looking into some better stuff when it runs out.

 

For BBU grease, do you think gear grease for AEGs will suffice?

 

Another thing I was thinking of when I proposed not adding any lube in GBB pistols was that you wont have the possibility of getting lube gunking up your barrel after a prolonged period of use. Hence it'll make cleaning the GBB much easier.

 

I'm using POM material for my BBU cylinder and the texture of the POM material is quite smooth compared with the stock marui one, hence I didn't think adding any oils outside the cylinder will do much use.

 

Do you have any thoughts about using dry lubricant for rails? I've read on AirsoftCanada forums that they are trying out mixtures of white lithium grease (for the binder) and fine graphite powder to lube their slides. Apparently the film of dry lube deposited between the slide rails and frame will fill in any micro-voids along the side and create a completely uniform and smooth surface for the slide to glide along. Haven't been able to get any white lith. grease or fine graphite powder yet, but I'm willing to try it out.