brgold Posted May 27, 2006 Report Share Posted May 27, 2006 I just got my P226 today so now that im done playing with it I have decided to buy a metal kit. Now the only real metal kits that are in my price range are the G&P, Guarder and Action kits. So my question is which of those three is the best value for the cost? And a separate question is, what should i upgrade (like springs, etc.) when I do get one of the metal kits? Thanks for the help. Link to post Share on other sites
Donut Posted May 27, 2006 Report Share Posted May 27, 2006 I've got guarder, if you do get the guarder one, expect to do some (ok... a lot) of sanding and work to make it fit. But once you get it fitted it's very nice. You don't need any new spring for the guarder kit, the stock springs are enough. Link to post Share on other sites
FatHammer Posted May 27, 2006 Report Share Posted May 27, 2006 Definitely the Guarder kit Link to post Share on other sites
FarEast Posted May 27, 2006 Report Share Posted May 27, 2006 Definitely the Guarder kit <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Guys don't just say stuff like above! give reasons! This is a very valid topic and the post above as it stands is a baseless opinion without any facts to why and helps nobody. With the increase in companies releasing metal kits for both Handguns and rifles owners now have more choice, only because 1 is cheaper doesn't make it worse quality a whole lot of factors go into it. As for the Action slide i should be able to give you some more infor possible either Monday or Tuesday depending on how many cups of tea and doughnuts Japanese Custom officials decide to consume today. Link to post Share on other sites
brgold Posted May 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2006 Ok, thanks for the info. Ill be waiting for that post FarEast and because its a holiday here theres no rush. But if anyone else has one of these kits please post your opinions. Link to post Share on other sites
dynamic_e Posted May 28, 2006 Report Share Posted May 28, 2006 Action kit sucks 1) Bad molding 2) Lots of play between slide and frame 3) Bad fit, lots of work needed to get it running smooth. I have not tried the other kits. Link to post Share on other sites
carpandean Posted May 28, 2006 Report Share Posted May 28, 2006 Most reviews of the Action kit (not just the slide) have been along the lines of what dynamic_e just said. A review on here of the G&P kit stated that it was glossy, almost plastic looking and the frame could not be fit. With this in mind, I would definitely recommend the Guarder as the best (and only) inexpensive kit. It takes some work to get some parts to fit, but once you do, it is a fantastic kit. I own both the Guarder kit and the PGC kit. While the finish is a little nicer on the PGC and the CNC'd lines are a little crisper, I prefer the Guarder kit for anything other than display. It feels great and look pretty good, too. As for springs, the stock springs will work over a wide range of cool to warm temps. For hot temps, you may want to pick up a 130% (not the Guarder 150%) recoil spring to slow down the recoil. I find the stock main (hammer) spring a little light, but it works. Again, I wouldn't recommend going with the 150% Guarder version, as it tends to cause the pin that pushes the valve to chip. I also recommend picking up a steel outer barrel -- adds to the look and the heft. Link to post Share on other sites
brgold Posted May 28, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2006 Thanks for that great info carpandean! Although i do have another question, once i get a metal kit and by the looks of it, the Guarder kit seems the best. What type of gas should I use just regular green gas or something a little bit more powerful? And allow me to ask a newb question, what are the advantages to having a tenser spring? Link to post Share on other sites
pokethepope Posted May 28, 2006 Report Share Posted May 28, 2006 green gas will be fine with most metal kit upgraded guns. a stronger recoil spring means the slide with snap back quicker, useful if the heavier metal slide makes cycle time slow compared to the stock plastic slide. on a different note, im sure i read a while ago on this forum that the action kit is a rebranded kit, of the guarder one i think. does anyone else know anything about this? Link to post Share on other sites
carpandean Posted May 28, 2006 Report Share Posted May 28, 2006 Yeah, what pokethepope said. Green gas will work fine. I haven't tried it, but I would be willing to bet that HFC134 would work just fine in hot temps. A stronger recoil spring does two things. First, it pulls the slide forward faster and, if you go too strong, shortens the amount the slide moves back during recoil. Too weak, the action is very slow. Too fast, you get mis-fires, as it does not move back far enough to chamber the next BB. A stiffer hammer spring may be needed to fully depress the mag valve with higher gas pressures. It also affects the weight of the trigger pull. Too light seems sloppy. Too heavy is hard to press. This is more personal preference, except for my note about the 150% spring in my previous post. One final note: be very careful when installing the metal kit. There are at least four springs that will fly away if you aren't prepared. 1) When removing the cylinder housing from the back of the slide, there is a long spring and pin that press against a ridge on the frame to hold the loading muzzle back that pop out. 2) When removing the right grip, if the hammer bar spring near the top slips off, it will shoot away. 3) When removing the hammer assembly, there is a small spring on the left side under a small silver triangular piece that is really hard to find if you lose it. 4) When removing the trigger assembly, there is another small spring above the slide release arm on the left side that is equally difficult to locate. If you have the parts diagram from the manual, these are parts P226-10 (pin) and P226-11 (spring), P226-42 (though, that is not shown where it is really located), P226-38 and P226-48, respectively. Link to post Share on other sites
FarEast Posted May 30, 2006 Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 OK I have the action kit, guess what! It's not as bad as everyone makes out! Problems mentioned here: 1) Bad molding I have given the gun a very very tight inspection and as far as i can see the only slightly dodgy part is the fake trigger screw on the left hand side of the lower frame, the right side mould is fine. 2) Lots of play between slide and frame Very little play between Slide and lower frame, infact it has less play than the original Tokyo Marui body kit! I can sit here and shake the gun violently and there is no rattle what so ever. It also cycles perfectly without catching on any of the extruding parts. 3) Bad fit, lots of work needed to get it running smooth. This gun required no milling, filing , dremeling nor malleting to get the peices to fit, it took me a little under two hours to strip the weapon and then rebuild it into the metal frame and slide with all the upgraded parts as well. So there you have it! The Action kit isn't as bad as what people are saying, infact i wonder if these people actual own a Action kit or are just rehashing tales they have either read or heard elsewhere. If your not an experienced gunsmith or are a little hesitant about stripping down a gun and rebuilding it would recommend you have someone who is rebuild it for you, If you have the manual you should through trial and error be able to work your way through it just remember that the trigger mech will slide out as a whole unit and does not need breaking down. The same goes for the rear unit where the hammer is. Pros: One of the Cheapest Kits including an outer barrel on the market Fully traded Does not require any modifications to fit. (Remeber some kits might differ slightly this has happend to me on two identical Glock slides) Cons Slight mould defect but needs a keen eye to see. No instructions Few areas without paint ( Slide catch and breakdown notch on upper slide, both fixed with paint pen) Link to post Share on other sites
brgold Posted May 30, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 wow, nice review FarEast. Well now I am really torn between the Guarder and Action kits! Link to post Share on other sites
FarEast Posted May 30, 2006 Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 wow, nice review FarEast. Well now I am really torn between the Guarder and Action kits! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Im actually going to write a full review and put it up in the readers review section as i think people need to be aware that the Action Sig P226 isn't cheap and nasty, also just like to mention that one of my team mates (He is also a Qualified Gunsmith and has been working in Airsoft since Airsoft began here in Japan) has the Prime non-railed kit and he says not to get it, the work needed to be done on them and the overall finish isn't worth the money you spend on it. I've sent him some pics of my Action frame and he is not a happy man at all! Edited for spelling Link to post Share on other sites
brgold Posted May 30, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 Thats a good idea because before I had even received my P226 I was under the impression that the Action kit was an expensive piece of scrap metal! I do like the fact that the kit does not need any milling or filing or things of that nature. But alas I am already in the process of buying a Guarder kit from someone on the forum. Link to post Share on other sites
FarEast Posted May 30, 2006 Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 Thats a good idea because before I had even received my P226 I was under the impression that the Action kit was an expensive piece of scrap metal! I do like the fact that the kit does not need any milling or filing or things of that nature. But alas I am already in the process of buying a Guarder kit from someone on the forum. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> LOL, now the question is why if they are so good are they selling it, or if they have tried to fit it how much damage have they done getting it to fit? Anyway here are some photos of my finished Sig Sauer P226. Please note that the gun has only just been finished and still has ceramic grease marks left from assembly on the outside. You can see in the above picture the areas that needed touching up with a paint pen, the browwning is not rust but looks like where the metal heated up when machining and wasn't rubbed down aftert, this was easily treated with rubbing achohol and then covered over with the paint pen again. Also note you can see the slight mold defect above the trigger bay, this could be caused by paint though. Original Plastic Tokyo Marui Body Assembled Weapon. Link to post Share on other sites
carpandean Posted May 30, 2006 Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 Great review FarEast. Certainly adds some points to the Action kit's reputation. However, after looking at it, some of the finish issues leave me a little concerned about the long-run durability of the finish. Only time will tell. More importantly, though, it hints at poor quality control. It may not have been hard to touch up those spots, but it never should have left the factory that way. With poor QC, one has to wonder if you got that one good unit in 100 or 1000, built closest to spec, while others received those furthest from it. It would be nice to see a follow-up from another member confirming the same findings. Unfortunately, my P226s with the Guarder kit were purchased as complete pistols from another member, so I did not have the opportunity to go through the install. I did, however, swap a complete cylinder assembly from a stock P226 to the slide of one of the Guarder kits. The original plastic kit was designed with to cutouts on each side of the slide (inside) for raised spots on the outside of the cylinder assembly to hold it in better. The Guarder kit is designed not use these (actually a good thing, since to work correctly, the slide should have to be spread to allow the unit to be put in.) A dremel with the right grinding tool doesn't take too long to remove these raised spots. I believe that WGC has instructions to show what needs to be ground off. Other than that, I haven't seen anywhere that has the finish ground off, so I'm not sure what other modification was necessary. On a funny note, I noticed that Action has "screw heads" molded on both sides of the frame for the trigger screw, instead of just the left side (the right side should not have the flat-head screw driver slot). Since Guarder does not, I would take this as evidence against rumors that the Action kit is just a re-branded Guarder kit. Link to post Share on other sites
brgold Posted May 30, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 LOL, now the question is why if they are so good are they selling it, or if they have tried to fit it how much damage have they done getting it to fit? Actually its a brand new kit, so there (hopefully) wont be any damage to it, and no damage either when long island airsoft gets through with installing the kit when i get it. Im so excited for my first full metal pistol; now only if i put this much money into my M14 Hella nice review too FarEast +1!! Link to post Share on other sites
BigAl Posted May 30, 2006 Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 Any one know how these compare to the KJW FMV with Trades? I have a TM but would have to pay someone to install the kit so would I be better off selling the TM and buying the KJ for £99? Link to post Share on other sites
pokethepope Posted May 30, 2006 Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 Any one know how these compare to the KJW FMV with Trades? I have a TM but would have to pay someone to install the kit so would I be better off selling the TM and buying the KJ for £99? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> theres a nice review here. the only thing ive read regarding problems about KJW P226's is the loading muzzle bit can break, but that can be fixed with a Guarder enhanced loading muzzle. cheers Link to post Share on other sites
dynamic_e Posted May 30, 2006 Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 There must be alot of variation in the production then. I have installed metal kits on GBB's and the action kit that we used was terrible. Possibly ours was a later production then yours and the mold started to wear down. Assembling the gun, you could move the slide all over the place. When you fired it, the slide would literally jump off the rail. It was a sight to behold. I guess your milage may vary. Link to post Share on other sites
FarEast Posted May 31, 2006 Report Share Posted May 31, 2006 There must be alot of variation in the production then. I have installed metal kits on GBB's and the action kit that we used was terrible. Possibly ours was a later production then yours and the mold started to wear down. Assembling the gun, you could move the slide all over the place. When you fired it, the slide would literally jump off the rail. It was a sight to behold. I guess your milage may vary. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Do you have any Photos of it? as it would be nice to compare the two and also give a little more credibility to the statement as alot of the members like to compare them to other kits, I do ......it's one of the reasons i chose the Hurricain-E HK416D kit over the guarder kit. Link to post Share on other sites
jackie_rants Posted May 31, 2006 Report Share Posted May 31, 2006 The Action kit, whilst cheap, needed a good fiddling with, at least mine did. The slide was straighforward, but required the blowback chamber and / or hammer to be filed where they come into contact with each other. Without filing, the slide wouldn't cycle. Everything fitted fine within the frame except the mag release backing plate + screw. Only cosmetic, but still. The mag release button fitted fine, but would not hold the mag properly. Lots of head scratching couldn't solve it. On the plus side, it made a nice noise when firing, has decent trademarks, and weighs a lot! Link to post Share on other sites
FarEast Posted May 31, 2006 Report Share Posted May 31, 2006 This seems to be the reason why the Action kit is so cheap...... No Quality Control! Mine is a perfect fit and required no modification or filing of th slide, yet the mould around the fake trigger pin is off while yours is perfect. I have no problems what so ever with the cycle of the weapon nor the magazine locking into place or the cover plate fitting. Link to post Share on other sites
brgold Posted May 31, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2006 So its basicly luck of the draw when it comes to the Action kits it seems. Link to post Share on other sites
jackie_rants Posted May 31, 2006 Report Share Posted May 31, 2006 I bought mine in HK last Oct for £55, twas was the cheapest kit at the time. When asking the shops for ease of installation, they replied with "don't know, never fitted one before". Also, the shop where I bought the it from said they were made by King Arms (??), but not heard it anywhere else so maybe a sales pitch. Just remembered another niggle with the frame - the hole where the 'mag release backing plate screw' goes into was too small, and wasn't even threaded. Recently I bought a Prime P226, and the seller said the gunsmith who fitted the parts said it was a nightmare! Link to post Share on other sites
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